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Post Posted: April 10th 2006 10:32 pm
 
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I really think Clones had so much going for it that it could have potentially been the best film in the series.

What the film did well was bring some life and adventure back into Star Wars after TPM slowed everything down. We get the zip and fast-paced storytelling that characterized the OT. The expositional clunk about the laws governing the SW galaxy put aside, Clones' story based on the film noir detective stories of the 40s was well-conceived and to me, a very welcome genre addition to the saga. Hence, I think Obi-wan's plot-arc is the best aspect of this film. In light of the entire saga's story arc, Clones had some very clever story ideas, but the problem to me is that there were too many ideas that George and co wanted to toss in. As I mentioned in the other thread, I think the same is true for TPM. The whole Sifo-Dyas element became completely worthless and only served to confuse the audience, for example. The love story has it's good moments, but overall it's pretty obvious it's the biggest problem with the film storywise. I know George wanted an old style romance, but Star Wars needed a bit of grit/humour/conflict with its romantic characters not boring dinner scenes. It was too tacky, too cliche and basically takes you right out of the Star Wars universe. Han and Leia's romance worked because it was part of the story as opposed to being THE plot thread.

The adventure scenes this go around were terrific rather than being showpieces for VFX. The podrace was fun but...why was it there again? Here we get a fast-paced speeder chase, an awesome sixth reel and smaller stuff peppered in between - I think the Jango/Obi fight is particularly well directed. However, as much as it mirrors what happens later in the series, I think there could have been a more creative way for Jango/Obi-wan to have a dogfight rather than in an asteroid field. The droid factory scene is probably the most embarassing sequence in the saga. Also, the VFX are terrific for most of the film, but there are soft spots and they show.

The acting in the film has its hits and misses...mainly misses with Natalie delivering her worst performance of the trilogy except for a couple scenes, Hayden gives an uneven performance and Jay Lagga-who cares should be edited out of the film altogether. Ewan does a neat job of blending his padawan Obi-wan with a much more mature tutor and shows why he was the best casting decision of the prequels. Ian doesn't have much to do in this film, but does a decent job where he's present. The dialogue he's given doesn't help him much but his Senate speech is pretty badass. Tem Morrison was a terrific choice for Jango and I think brought the grit back to Star Wars in this film. I just wish he wasn't given the Darth Maul treatment and got a little more to work with in plot and was allowed to free himself from his useless sidekick son. Dooku as a character could have made this film stink of ANH but Lee is given so little to do that the danger of the Sith, so well established in TPM, is reduced to nothing by the end of AOTC. We're given a simple reminder that 'hey, we're bad guys and we're up to no good' with the last scene of the film...pretty worthless.

Music....This has been beaten to death but aside from Across the Stars, the movie needs to be rescored nearly in its entirety. I'm embarassed for George, Star Wars and especially John Williams.

I think the stuff Clones did well are the little things. The editing was pretty dreadful so we have to look at what 'could have been' as futile as it may be. I loved Kamino and the Kaminoans. Probably my favourite planet of the PT. I loved the dark scenes between Mace/Yoda/Obi-wan about Jango. The Harry Hausen bit with Obi-wan and the Acklay was terrific. I loved Anakin's confession and the swell of the Emperor's theme just as he starts to cry. Watto delivers maybe the best single performance in the film when he talks to Anakin on Tattooine. Hell, I love the bit where Anakin gives Padme a sly look when she questions him about dictatorships.

The film though is mainly potential. I envisioned a darker story, as I think George did as well, but it was lost in the mess of ideas, improvisation and production problems that plagued Episode II. The script/dialogue just never came together and the execution of what was there just wasn't on. You can pick out scenes that George was excited to direct as well as the ones that he just made up on the spot or wrote in a few minutes to fill time....I know people want those Padme family scenes back in but what will they accomplish? They'd make a long film even longer. Add more fluff to an already uninteresting love story. In light of how Anakin's turn played out, alot more could have been done with Padme/Anakin in II.

It always sounds like I'm hard on the film, but I think that's honestly what I think about when I think of Clones: missed opportunity. This doesn't mean that I don't think the film's entertaining...sure it is, and that's what it did well as opposed to Menace. In Menace, I skip the exposition and story scenes...get right to the race, or duel or whatever; in Clones I love watching Obi-wan talk to Lama Su in the Clone factory, I think Yoda is fucking awesome 80 percent of the film and the finale with the stormtroopers and the Imperial March gave me a hardon on May 16/02. It did add some of that fantastical escapism to the lore and story of Star Wars, just not enough and in some cases not good enough.


Post Posted: April 12th 2006 5:17 am
 

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Are you talking about Clones - the film or Clones - the clones? :)

I liked the epic speeder chase (epic, because of the constant change of surroundings) and the Battle of Geonosis (getting bigger and bigger throughout).


Post Posted: April 12th 2006 7:18 am
 
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Some things I liked about Clones;

1) Speeder chase - looked awesome in the cinema.

2) The cut scenes. From this movie onwards I loved most of the cut scenes.


Post Posted: April 12th 2006 7:20 am
 
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Ternian wrote:
2) The cut scenes. From this movie onwards I loved most of the cut scenes.


I agree. The scene with Windu and Kenobi on the landing platform was my favorite AotC cut scene. The scene added in its place between the both of them and Yoda was just bizarre and too short, and looked like a really bad matte painting.


Post Posted: April 12th 2006 7:38 am
 
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I am a huge fan of the family scenes, Naboo arrival and the original senate scene. Also, I would have liked to see the missing refugee scene.

The problem with AotC was that a lot of it should have been in TPM - it had too much story. What it did well was put action and adventure back into SW - and I thank Zam and Jango for doing that.


Post Posted: April 12th 2006 7:22 pm
 

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The Senate scene where Amidala comes out of nowhere to address everybody was awful. Her speech was kind of important I guess, but those effects look terribleawfulunfixable.

I liked all of the Naboo stuff, not just the family scenes (although those were good too, don't get me wrong). It's plain that Hayden delivered his dialog a lot more warmly during production and the ADR specifically changed that. I know what Lucas was going for there, I just think that a few scenes where Anakin drops the facade might've been useful... and Naboo would've been a logical place for that to happen.

Maybe some day Lucas will reinsert those scenes. If nothing else, they'll give better context to Padme's funeral.


Post Posted: April 13th 2006 8:51 am
 
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The Senate scene with Amidala - like a lot of scenes was cut down. It was much more dramatic in the script with Senators arguing against each other etc.

In retrospect, AotC would have been great if the plot centred around Naboo stopping the Chancellor from taking control of the Clones, Amidala being sent back to Naboo for protection where she falls in love with Anakin, and then the invasion of Naboo which they successfully stop the invasion with the help of the Clones. :)


Post Posted: April 13th 2006 11:19 am
 
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I remember coming out of the theater being totally blown away by Clones. In retrospect, however, I don't find it nearly as good. I do however think the script was a lot cleaner than the film. George's habit of cutting single lines of dialogue was a detriment to the entire prequel trilogy. Anakin and Obi-wan entering the nightclub is a good example:

[font=Arial]"She went in there to hide, not to run."
"Yes, Master."
"Try not to lose this."
"Sorry, Master."
"This weapon is your life."
"I try, Master."[/font]

Huh? By remixing and cutting a few lines that conversation makes no sense.

However, I really liked the "Dick Tracy" mystery plot. The Kaminoans were wicked cool, so were the bounty hunters. And how many people stood up and cheered when Yoda took out his lightsaber? As an action/adventure film Clones is great. As the darker, more serious love story we were promised it fails horribly.


Post Posted: April 13th 2006 3:05 pm
 

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The landing platform cut scene w/ Mace and Obi-Wan was real cool. I like that sliding platform and how Obi-Wan’s ship lifts off. The comings and goings of the crafts in all six movies is very interesting to me. Slave 1 descending into the underground hanger on Geonosis was a plus. Dooku arriving on Coruscant. Both those had a great bat cave feel where you park your badass ship in your badass lair and make grand plans to conquer and enslave.

Jango’s story exceeded my expectations. Boba is a fav and Jango is weaved in very creatively. I got wide eyed w/ his addition to the story because it fit well. The actor was perfect for the character and the scenes w/ Zam were mysterious….using his jet pack to flee the scene after killing Zam w/ an obscure dart. Kamino was flawless – really just w/out flaw in all scenes, introducing young Boba, Obi Wan-Jango banter, clueless Kaminos don’t understand humans about to scrap….the Jango-Obi Wan fight was prob top few action scenes in the entire six movies for me. Asteroid chase equaled ESB falcon stuff. Sonic bombs were awesome, Slave 1 showed to be the worthy tool of a galactic bad ass. The aforementioned decent into the underground hanger leading to the confirmation Jango is enforcer/donor for evil doer dooku. And befitting all the action and drama preceding his death, Jango is beheaded AND we watch his head roll away. Arguably the most gruesome scene in all six movies. I’ve watched Clones many times just to see Jango.


Post Posted: April 13th 2006 3:18 pm
 

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Topeka wrote:
I remember coming out of the theater being totally blown away by Clones. In retrospect, however, I don't find it nearly as good. I do however think the script was a lot cleaner than the film. George's habit of cutting single lines of dialogue was a detriment to the entire prequel trilogy. Anakin and Obi-wan entering the nightclub is a good example:

[font=Arial]"She went in there to hide, not to run."
"Yes, Master."
"Try not to lose this."
"Sorry, Master."
"This weapon is your life."
"I try, Master."[/font]

Huh? By remixing and cutting a few lines that conversation makes no sense.

However, I really liked the "Dick Tracy" mystery plot. The Kaminoans were wicked cool, so were the bounty hunters. And how many people stood up and cheered when Yoda took out his lightsaber? As an action/adventure film Clones is great. As the darker, more serious love story we were promised it fails horribly.


I actually thought the piece of dialog you quoted worked okay. Obi-Wan lectured Anakin on losing his lightsaber (a rookie mistake several Jedi making during the movie) and Anakin's exasperation with Obi-Wan and his lectures was obvious. It felt rote and perfunctory, like he'd been completely deflated when, just moments before, he was very excited and eager to end the chase and arrest Zam. Obi-Wan, in Anakin's eyes, was breaking the spell.

Like Sultan Bey, I liked Jango in AOTC too. Lucas freely admited he was worked in there mostly to make the fans giddy and he hadn't really worked out Boba's involvement in his outline but you wouldn't have thought so based on how the concept turned out in the movie. It works absolutely great.

AOTC is my fave of the PT because it goes nuts with the plot since the characters had already been more or less established and it doesn't have the pressure of delivering a climax. Great story, great effects, great music, everything worked well, top-quality stuff.

EDIT- As for the love story, even that doesn't bother me very much. It's clueless, bumbling and insecure, much like the people who are falling in love. Even I'm scared of what's happening to this world when I quote Harry Knowles, but he raised a good point. It's their first love, it's inevitably going to be awkward... compounded by Anakin and Padme's stations in life. Lastly, it seems like in the PT era, courtly love is more the norm than modern dating customs. I actually kind of like that in retrospect. It would've been easy for Lucas to make it more familiar... on the other hand, the tip-off here should've been the term Jedi *Knight* in terms of what we can expect for the GFFA's social customs. Everything else about the GFFA in the PT era was formal so why would dating be any different?


Post Posted: April 13th 2006 6:40 pm
 
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The love story worked in the script - and its a shame a good director wasnt around to bring it on screen because it would have made an awesome movie.


I liked Zam and Jango because they brought a grittier underside to the dirty politics of the Senate. It was much more Star Warsy for me.


Post Posted: April 17th 2006 5:40 pm
 
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Ternian wrote:
The love story worked in the script - and its a shame a good director wasnt around to bring it on screen because it would have made an awesome movie.


I liked Zam and Jango because they brought a grittier underside to the dirty politics of the Senate. It was much more Star Warsy for me.


Forget director, try editor. Everything wrong with Attack of the Clones happened in the editing room. Some cheesy dialogue aside, it was a GREAT script, really, really solid.

I love Attack of the Clones, but it frustrates me a ridicolous amount what it could have been. I recently looked at some of the George Lucas "Selects" for Episode II, and was once again reminded of how this movie fell short of my expectations, as much as I do very, very much enjoy the film. I loved it when it came out, I still do, but there's just something missing. Does anyone remember: http://www.starwars.com/episode-ii/expl ... 01221.html or the storyboards for the arena battle, and how much better they were than the actual fight?? ARGH!!

Nonetheless, back to the topic at hand:

Things about AOTC I like:

- The Obi-Wan and Anakin interaction
- Shmi's death, the Tusken slaughter, and Anakin's confession
- Some portions of the love story
- The parallel stories are told well throughout, good buildup and everything
- Seeing all the Jedi fight at once
- Yoda fights


Post Posted: April 17th 2006 5:49 pm
 
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The fight between Jango and Obi-Wan was awesome. I only wish the fight with Mace in the arena wasn't so butchered (and like 30 seconds long). I've come to really hate the use of the Trade Federation march for the clone army on Kamino. I wish there were a bigass rendition of the stormtrooper theme from ANH in that scene. Oh well, random thought.


Post Posted: April 17th 2006 6:07 pm
 
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ETAndElliot4Ever wrote:
The fight between Jango and Obi-Wan was awesome. I only wish the fight with Mace in the arena wasn't so butchered (and like 30 seconds long). I've come to really hate the use of the Trade Federation march for the clone army on Kamino. I wish there were a bigass rendition of the stormtrooper theme from ANH in that scene. Oh well, random thought.


The Jango-Obi fight on Kamino was a letdown for me, what was on screen was quite good, save I felt the music wasn't dramatic enough. They fight for I think about 90 seconds in all.

Also. DON'T GET ME STARTED ON THE MUSIC. If Lucas ever does a Special Edition of AOTC or any PT film, let's pray he goes back and does justice to John Williams. Or cuts AOTC together the way it should've been.


Post Posted: April 17th 2006 8:49 pm
 

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MannyOrtez wrote:
Forget director, try editor. Everything wrong with Attack of the Clones happened in the editing room. Some cheesy dialogue aside, it was a GREAT script, really, really solid.

I thought the additions Lucas made to the script (extra scenes for the elevator ride and for Anakin's meeting with Palpatine) largely improved on the script by showing us things we otherwise would not have gotten to see.

One thing that was definitely missing from the script was a sense of urgency and peril after Anakin and Padme depart from Coruscant. I always felt that escaping another assassination attempt would've brought them closer together a bit more organically. I don't really mind the love story as it is, but if I could change one thing, it'd be a bounty hounter or some battle droids taking a shot at Padme.

Although one could argue the peril Obi-Wan faces during the story balances that out.

On the other hand, there's plenty of tension in those scenes. The music helps but you really get the feeling that Anakin and Padme shouldn't be doing what they're doing. But since they're young and free from the restraints of their normal lives (and the accompanying supervision)...

Quote:
- Seeing all the Jedi fight at once

This was one thing I thought was sort of a letdown to be honest. I guess it makes sense that the Jedi would be more used to fighting by themselves or in pairs, but really it doesn't feel like a squad of Jedi stormed the arena. It's more like 200 individual Jedi Knights fought individual battles... side by side. By contrast, we clearly saw the clonetroopers working as a team to win the battle literally from the moment we first see them.


Post Posted: April 17th 2006 9:00 pm
 
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There is a deleted scene on hyperspace from AOTC that shows Ki-Adi and a few other Jedi that infiltrate a droid control ship and try to shut it down before they are captured and taken into the middle of the arena. The CG wasn't completed for the scene but it just gave you an idea of what went on. GL cut that because it didn't flow quite right with the rest of the arena battle. I almost wished they had left that in.

Who knows maybe we'll get the 12 disc Saga box set next year then in a few years down ther oad we'll get an ULTIMATE EDITION of the saga with all the deleted scenes put back in the movies and everything given a proper digital restoration. Perhaps too the tracked music through AOTC and ROTS might be rescored.

However I doubt Lucas will get Williams to come back in and rescore anything. He isn't like Peter Jackson is to Howard Shore.


Post Posted: April 19th 2006 5:48 pm
 
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I've made this post many times before, but I will do it again for shits n gigs:

HOW THE LOVE STORY WAS EDITED TOGETHER:
1) Aboard the transport: "Forbidden love" introduced, we see Anakin still wants to bang Padme, Padme finds this awkward
2) Walk to the Palace: We really don't learn much at all about their relationship here
3) Audience with the Queen: Could be the most boring scene in all of Star Wars, again, says very little about the two's relationship, except Padme seems to think she's better than Anakin, she still seems to not have any feelings for Anakin
4) Kiss by the lake: OK, so now all of a sudden they are speaking to one another as if they feel some affection, and then they start making out...Padme letting Anakin do this seems out of place at this point, b/c they've had no sexual tension thus far or any signs of physical chemistry.
5) Meadow Picnic: Alludes to some of the themes of the relationship, duty versus desire, responsibility politics versus desire, etc., probably the most important thing in the scene is Anakin's political views, which show some Vader-esque ness, but again, nothing to do with their relationship. The rolling around on the grass now seems out of place and superflous, b/c they kissed by the lake, we already know their is apparently some sparks, but rolling in the grass is a step down from the kiss, so what's the point
6) Anakin whispers sweet nothings: Finally, a really good scene for the love story, I don't care what you say about the dialogue, it at least lays out the conflicts the two face. But the desire versus duty stuff is somewhat thin at this point. It's not a full fledged theme.
7) Love pledge: We don't really get back into the love story until this point, at the arena, when Padme tells Anakin she loves him. It should seem a little out of left field, okay, so we are to believe she is attracted to him based on what we've been told, but we haven't really seen much chemistry at this point, and only one scene in the film has detailed Padme's conflict btwn her duty and wanting Anakin. We aren't thinking "finally she says it!!" as we should be, but "umm...yea, okay, I guess" and the scene, which had the potential to rival the Han-Leia carbonite scne in power, only has a moderate impact b/c of it.

HOW THE LOVE STORY SHOULD HAVE BEEN EDITED TOGETHER:
1) Aboard the transport: "Forbidden love" introduced
2) Extended walk to the Palace: So we learn Padme wants a family, wants to settle down, but feels obligated to her job, important to know. (CUT AUDIENCE W THE QUEEN)
3) Family scenes: Establishes everything we need to know essentially, Padme has a great deal of inner conflict between her duties and her wanting a life of her own and a family. It's clear she's physically attracted to Anakin, but she can't do anything about it.
4) Meadow picnic: This scene should come BEFORE the kiss. Now their little roll in the grass is a logical sexual tension leading up to what will come next. It's clear they both want each other, but at this point they are still feeling unsure about their feelings, and if they are right to give into them.
5) The kiss: We've now spent a good deal building up to this kiss, so it has a much greater impact. Padme's pulling away likewise has more impact, b/c we now understand how bad she wants the relationship, yet how obligated she feels to order and duty.
6) Anakin whispers sweet nothings: Again, we have a much, much greater understanding of their conflicts and now we really believe the things Padme is saying. We feel for both characters and have stake in the outcome of the relationship.
7) Love pledge: The moment the film has been building up to, Padme finally admits her feelings, the ones she has had all along and that we as an audience have been rooting for her to express. They kiss, good stuff.

The version as seen in the film is ADEQUATE, we see the romance only through Anakin's eyes, and we feel very detatched from Padme. We already knew how Anakin felt going into the film anyway, so it all has a bit of a perfunctory feel to it. Yet, like I said, it is adequate, but the scripted version (plus the so obvious change of switching the kiss and the meadow scene) make it far more than adequate. It makes the love story the center of the film as it should've been, and it makes it strong, believable and engaging. It was basically all there in the script, GL and probably Ben friggin Burtt decided to hack it up.


Post Posted: April 19th 2006 6:27 pm
 
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I liked the original theatrical version of the Anakin confession scene. The added bit where Padme says that "To be angry is human" shit is so awful. The delivery is completely flat and devoid of any emotion. Portman at her worst.


Post Posted: April 21st 2006 3:58 am
 
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The filming script version of AotC actually follows Padme's journey - not Anakin's. The movie was edited down to Anakin's story and it is empty.


Post Posted: April 21st 2006 8:37 am
 
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Ternian wrote:
The filming script version of AotC actually follows Padme's journey - not Anakin's. The movie was edited down to Anakin's story and it is empty.

Exactly, why follow Anakin's story in the romance - it's not that interesting. It's Padme who is conflicted about everything.


Post Posted: May 7th 2006 2:58 am
 
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finally updated first post.


Post Posted: May 7th 2006 6:38 am
 
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"The Chase Through Coruscant" is one of my favorite cues for the film. This is Williams at his best. The music is action packed, exciting, and totally creative. Of course, this makes it a perfect track to completely butcher during post production. If you listen to this on the OST, you'll hear most of the original composition. In the film, however, the constant editing and annoying looping of this cue is blatantly obvious, and immensely irritating. What's worse is that two brief sections that awesomely featured electric guitar are completely excised! This is really where all the problems with the music began, and they did not stop coming. Until the finale, there are only a few bright spots, like Anakin's confession and the surrounding Tatooine scenes. The whole idea of re-tracking music and splicing the score for entire scenes together from said tracked music is utterly silly, and it sounds stupid. Star Wars is clearly better than that.


Post Posted: May 7th 2006 7:43 am
 
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The chase scene is one of my favourite moments in the Saga. It was a shame that the music was horribly cut as well - although I still think it worked well. The whole Jango/bounty hunter storyline really made me feel like I was watching Star Wars again. It kind of separated the political Senators from the lowly work the Jedi did to maintain peace in the galaxy.


Post Posted: May 14th 2006 12:31 am
 
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I watched Clones today....

There's about 35-40 mins tops of new music in the entire film. A trainwreck.


Post Posted: May 14th 2006 2:06 am
 

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I've got it on pause right now in the DVD-ROM. I have to agree with, I think, Manny Ortez when he suggested that first kissing scene on the balcony swapping places with the picnic/Sound of Music scene. Doing that would really show the audience how Anakin and Padme broke the ice before the "kiss she shouldn't have given him" went down.

It's not a huge thing either way but it would work well. Plus it'd show Obi-Wan and Anakin's respective plans derailing at about the same time.


Post Posted: May 14th 2006 7:14 am
 
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That scene was butchered to begin with. The whole story about sand and glass is lost in the movie... :(


Post Posted: May 15th 2006 12:36 pm
 
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CoGro wrote:
I watched Clones today....

There's about 35-40 mins tops of new music in the entire film. A trainwreck.


Don't get me going...I will complain endlessly about this fact.


Post Posted: June 7th 2006 4:16 pm
 
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I loved the Coruscant chase scene in AotC -its one of my favourite moments from the PT - including the Gambling Club sequence as well.

There was heaps more to be included in the chase scene, including a scene involving the Jedi flying through some type of commerical airport. I am glad it was cut down a bit - although I am not a fan of the power generator sequence which I think was awkward and sucked.

The music on the soundtrack for this scene rocked although it is a shame they cut the guitars from the final score.


I also remember this scene being the first scene we ever saw of the movie when it was released exclusively on Aussie TV :D


Post Posted: June 7th 2006 8:29 pm
 
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The guitars were over-dubbs...however they were there in the film but dubbed REALLY low. In a rear channel rip you can barely hear them.

I agree though the "Chase Through Coruscant" music is a pretty cool piece. I always find myself listening to the full thing.


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