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Post Posted: April 12th 2016 7:05 am
 
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The List/Evidence for Plagueis:



Snoke is described as being steeped in Dark Side knowledge. Plagueis was known for having "such a knowledge of the Dark Side".


Snoke is described by his apprentice, Kylo Ren, as “wise”. Which villain in the Star Wars saga was labelled ‘wise”?


Snoke's theme is nigh on identical to that of the Opera Scene in ROTS where we learn about Darth Plagueis.


Snoke literally looks like he has cheated death. His injuries are extensive. The only person we know who has actually cheated death (saved others) is Plagueis. Did he really teach his apprentice everything he knew? Have Sith Lords ever been known to bend the truth? Tell a little lie here and there? Masters of deception, anyone?!


Within the Darth Plagueis novel that was de-canonised, Plagueis talks about having Superweapons that can destroy entire star systems, he talks about ruling from the shadows whilst Sidious is the public face, of how immortality is more important than the power Sidious is after and on the cover appears as a large hologram overlooking Sidious. There are also many more verses in the novel that could fit very nicely with what we know about Snoke. It should also be noted that Plagueis had his apprentice Sidious murder his family as his final trial - something Snoke orders Kylo Ren to do. It’s worth noting that Plagueis’ Sun Guards smack of the KoR. The look of them, the weapons they carry. Their design is heavily influenced by these guys.


Plagueis was originally a Muun. A tall (7ft), pale, skinny alien. That was de-canonised. Like the book that shares many ideas that resemble Snoke's story. And what does Snoke look like - Tall (7ft), pale, skinny and he's an alien.


Heres the weird bit: JJ even considered the possibility of Snoke being a woman. He didn’t want him to be an old and decrepit, like the Emperor. Um…but what did we end up with? I don’t see any boobies on that old man. JJ got overruled!


In the original script for ROTS, Lucas had it that Anakin WAS created by the Sith (Palpatine). He discarded it as it was unnecessary. However it shows what his final thoughts were on Anakin's origins. Then he decides to write the ST. He needs a villain. Would Lucas' villain not have been Plagueis? The perfect tie in with HIS beloved PT and a way of directly continuing the Darth Vader chosen one tale? Keep in mind Michael Arndt's recent comments that Lucas' treatments weren't in fact ditched but that much of it remains.


In the comic con conference, JJ tells us that LK was not being honest when he mishears Plagueis as Vegas as he says "LK is messing with you". This shows us that JJ passed the question over hoping LK would come up with a good cover story. But LK messed it up. Daisy Ridley is also shushed by Abrams as she begins to say "Is that...". Whatever happened there, it got awkward and is a point for Plagueis IMO. The question from comic con was specifically about whether Plagueis would be mentioned in Episode VII and about the staff - NOT if Darth Plagueis will be in the ST, like many people have misinterpreted.


Snoke is unseen before Sidious' rise and then emerges after his death. Someone so powerful in the Dark Side would surely have been known of in some way and wouldn't have been happy waiting for Sidious' to move aside - who knows how long Sidious would be in power for. We also need to take into account how long Sidious and the Sith planned to take over. If Snoke is separate to this then he has been idle for potentially 1000 yrs. Maybe more. We know Sidious killed Plagueis in his sleep. Or so he thought. Thus if he did in fact survive the attack, he would've been weakened (check), disfigured (check) and likely unable to go toe to toe with Sidious (check). By emerging after Sidious' death, it reveals that Snoke's life is connected in some way to Sidious' life and death.


Kylo suggests to Hux that Snoke considered a clone army - something that once had direct implications with the Sith and their plan to take over. A nod to Plagueis' former role.



Where did Snoke acquire his extensive Dark Side knowledge? If anyone can get this knowledge what is the point in the Jedi and Sith? Why did they have a monopoly on the Force? Why is so much made of knowledge being passed down within both orders if Snoke can just learn it himself? This means to me that Snoke was a Sith. But the only Sith who could've survived and reemerged is Plagueis.


During Rey’s vision sequence in TFA, we can clearly hear the voice of Palpatine saying “any Jedi!” This carefully selected piece of audio was lifted from a scene form ROTS where Palpatine is talking to Anakin about saving Padme from death. Once again, this is a nod to Plagueis and the power he possessed to save people from dying. Why use this line? Why reference the PT when apparently “Disney are distancing themselves from the PT” as many deluded fans claim?





It has been confirmed that there are NO Sith in TFA. Again, this resulted in fans claiming “Snoke can’t be Plagueis!” Nonsense. After cheating death, Plagueis would have abandoned the Sith order. Sidious and Vader were the only two Sith remaining. Once Vader killed Sidious, the Sith were destroyed and balance was restored. Plagueis’ existence does not interfere in the prophecy.





Star Wars Rebels



( & enter George Lucas. Plagueis’ creator.)


So, Uncle George decides to bring back Darth Maul in TCW, after we watched him get sliced in half in TPM. George stated that he died in TPM at the hands of Obi-Wan Kenobi. He looked pretty dead to me too. Anyway, we now see Mr Maul pop up in ‘Rebels’ as ‘Old Master’. Mr Maul has made it clear that he despises the Sith and has nothing to do with the order any more. Hmmm, what’s this? A former Sith Lord, who has cheated death, abandoned the order, has been in the shadows for years, plotting his revenge on all of his enemies. What on earth could this be eluding to? Good work Mr Filoni, I see what you did there! Oh and one more thing. Why is Maul on the back cover of the Plagueis novel. Coincidental, isnt it…





I’ll throw a few quotes in here….





Andy Serkis: “I have no idea who he is!”


Interesting comments Andrew. Isn’t Snoke just Snoke? If he was just an original character, why is there a mystery surrounding his identity? But “He’s a newly introduced character!” I hear you cry. Well Andrew, we’ve never actually been introduced to Darth Plagueis before. We’ve only ever heard of him. So, technically Snoke IS a new character. He just used to go by a different name when he was a Sith Lord. Done.


Next…


Pablo Hidalgo


The game player. And doing a fine job. Has Pablo ever said “Snoke is not Plagueis?” No, he hasn’t. He’s playing a game, some of us refer to as “a power trip”. However, when Snoke is revealed as Plagueis, and the dust settles, Pablo’s reputation is intact. Clever boy. If Plagueis being Snoke is such a ridiculous theory, why not just come out and say it? “But Plagueis died! I hear you say. Palpatine killed him!” Riiiiiight……



The List/Evidence against Plagueis


Supreme Leader Snoke, despite being horrifically damaged, has cheated death and all the other similarities he shares with Plagueis, as stated above, might just be a random new bad guy they’ve decided to go with (tacked on , anyone?!) in the 3rd act of the 9 part saga. Yes, Disney and some of the best storytellers and producers on the planet decided that this would be the way to go.





*Insert Funny GIF here*






You decide….


Post Posted: April 12th 2016 9:44 am
 
OBGYN
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You've presented some very good arguments for him possibly being Darth P, but for now I'm still pretty much convinced that Snoke is Ezra from Star Wars Rebels.


Post Posted: April 12th 2016 10:21 am
 
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Many thanks. I can see why you suspect Ezra, but the fact that "Snoke" is 7-8 ft and not human kills that theory, doesn't it?


Post Posted: April 12th 2016 10:45 am
 
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I believe I've just unravelled the ST story:

Rey IS NOT a Skywalker. The Skywalker's are tainted by the darkside as they were essentially created by Plagueis. The Jedi Order was good and pure before Anakin came along. The Skywalker's need to be vanquished along with their creator to end this ongoing Light vs Dark Side conflict. Luke, who went in search for the first Jedi temple for answers, now knows this. When Rey shows up, he knows who she is: the one to fulfill this mission. His reaction says it all.

The force has called to Rey. Once the Skywalker's and Plagueis are gone, Rey can begin rebuilding the Jedi Order.


For me, that's a tragic but powerful story. Luke will 'pull an Obi Wan' and become one with the force - taking down Plagueis with him. Leia will be killed, and Rey will take down Kylo.


Post Posted: April 12th 2016 12:48 pm
 
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very well argued. I had decided I'd just wait and see mainly because so far Snoke has just been pretty boring to me, but not only your points make sense, they also make the character and reveal interesting, which I count on the next 2 movies to do. The connection to the whole storyline could work too.
I've been slowly moving toward the Rey is not a Skywalker side lately, after all I'm not a royalist, eh. But also in the same line of thoughts you wrote here.

Ezra being Snoke is complete :mrgreen: hehe sorry Bandersnatch
Apart from the physical difference (still huge), I don't see them doing ties to the animated shows in this obvious way, rather more like said above just giving subtle clues and parallels, with Maul- or, what I would love too, that the ST storyline end up in line with the Mortis trilogy: the force family eventually self-destructing, with the new chosen one both involved and witnessing.

About Snoke "if Skywalker returns, the new Jedi will rise", I do hope it implies by the time of ep9 there will be a few Jedi, not just Rey as the last one all over again... oh and a whole army of Force ghosts is shaping up :p

...And overall, I do hope the ST will have a good political statement, huge task here.


Post Posted: April 12th 2016 5:02 pm
 
OBGYN
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Max Rebo wrote:
...oh and a whole army of Force ghosts is shaping up


That would be fucking awesome. I know, it would be a total ripoff of Return of the King, but I don't care. :bouncin:


Post Posted: April 13th 2016 12:42 am
 
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I don't believe Snoke should just be "some guy." It would narratively separate the ST from what came before it and assures 10-12 and Star Wars saga films to be made Ad infinitum, which I don't like since i'd like to know how this Skywalker story ends in my lifetime.

That said, I don't believe Snoke will be revealed as a previous character we already know or have heard of. Lucasfilm is making an effort to "move on" from the canon and take the story and characters in new directions. I am starting to believe less and less that Rey is a Skywalker.

I really hope there's connective tissue between all of the trilogies, and not just by inserting familiar characters; there should be narrative progression. Palpatine is the "big bad" in Star Wars to me, and I am still not fully over the mental hurdle that the ST is "necessary" to the Skywalker story. Great entertainment and characters, but so far it has the feeling of playing more like endnotes than Act 3 of a cohesive space opera.


Post Posted: April 13th 2016 11:48 am
 
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CoGro wrote:
I really hope there's connective tissue between all of the trilogies, and not just by inserting familiar characters; there should be narrative progression. Palpatine is the "big bad" in Star Wars to me, and I am still not fully over the mental hurdle that the ST is "necessary" to the Skywalker story. Great entertainment and characters, but so far it has the feeling of playing more like endnotes than Act 3 of a cohesive space opera.


I shared your fears regarding the ST. The only way I can see it working is if they go down the Plagueis route, and that's what I believe they are doing. You simply cannot introduce a random bad ass in (what I hope and believe) is the final act of the Skywalker saga. It'll feel tacked on, unnecessary and if truth be told, bad storytelling. There are way too many references in the (decanonised) Plagueis novel that are being used, and Snoke is obviously cheating death - he looks like complete shit.


Post Posted: April 13th 2016 6:33 pm
 

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Truth told they are never going to make everyone happy no matter who writes or directs. Someone will always say it's bad writing. It's not science, it's subjective.
If they didn't want Rey to be a Skywalker, it was very dangerous for them to connect her so much with the Skywalker lightsaber, so her not being a Skywalker also risk upsetting a high percent of the audience. Granted, as I said before, there will always be a percentage disappointed, keeping that percentage lower is one of the goals.


Post Posted: April 13th 2016 10:34 pm
 
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If I were a betting person, I think it'll turn out that Snoke is actually... just Snoke.

The Plagueis connections are interesting, but in the basic logistics of storytelling, that's a character that existed in the span of a couple lines of dialog, off-screen in one scene of a movie that a significant chunk of the filmgoing public hasn't seen in a decade. It's a lot to take in for viewers that aren't hardcore fans who can recite the opera scene from ROTS backwards in their sleep. Plus, I don't think Pablo Hidalgo was misleading people in his comments about Plagueis leading up to TFA's premiere.


Post Posted: April 14th 2016 6:38 am
 
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Watch on vimeo.com



Plagueis Confirmed!


Post Posted: April 15th 2016 6:28 am
 
OBGYN
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:lol:

Nice job, but fake.


Post Posted: April 17th 2016 10:03 am
 
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Why would Plagueis need to disguise himself? I don't the see the logic in the creation of a Snoke analysis.


Post Posted: April 17th 2016 1:56 pm
 
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He's no longer known as Darth Plagueis, as he is no longer a Sith Lord. He hasn't been a Sith since he cheated death and abandoned the order. Sidious and Vader were the last two standing and therefore Plagueis' existence, who goes by the name "Snoke", didn't interfere with the prophecy and balance was restored after the events of ROTJ.

Simple.


Post Posted: April 20th 2016 1:43 pm
 
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Snoke is not Plagueis.

I'd be shocked if Rey is not Luke's kid.

As I said from day one, Rey should've been Leia's.

Ben/Kylo vs. Rey would work better if they were brother and sister adversaries rather than cousin adversaries.

This was a mistake.

Abrams makes many.


Post Posted: April 20th 2016 7:13 pm
 
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I think that the structure of a Star Wars trilogy has to be somewhat predictable in order to hit the right notes as a good story.

Some of my guesses:

Snoke is probably Plagueis, but that could also entail him being a bad so big that he's lived many generations and gone by different names: one of them even being Darth Bane, maybe? Surely it at least has to be established that he's worse than Palpatine. Rey is probably Luke's daughter, which we're meant to feel smart for figuring out by the end of VII (I know I did, durr hurr). However, I expect us to be misdirected in VIII and for it to only be revealed as a certitude in Act II or III of IX. And Maz Kanata is probably one of Yoda's (and Yaddle's!) species, which will probably be called "Whills," and be a representative of a Force school/tradition that is more pure, ancient, and correct in its understanding of the Force than the Jedi Order and their Code.


None of my guesses (much of which is based on other people's guesswork and generously-provided spoiler info) turning out to be right is necessary, but they're points that seem to make the most sense to me. It is nice that TFA seemed to let on that they're tying the ST thematically to the PT. However, I've let go of a lot of my expectations, and I've tried to look at the ST as a new generation's myth that doesn't have to be woven too tightly to what came before, although it's what I want. I mean, even if they managed to add VII, VIII, and IX without badly screwing up what came before, we know we'll get X, XI, and XII 20-30 years from now because Disney.

I find it more fun trying to sift through spoilers this time because the ST filmmakers have made it harder to discern the truth than the PT filmmakers did. It wouldn't surprise me if they even court the webmasters of certain spoiler sites in order to give them incentive to not share all they know. Despite my love for them, spoilers aren't necessary, though, and there is merit in knowing as little as possible going into the theater.


Post Posted: December 17th 2017 6:30 pm
 
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Well it was a nice theory, one I wouldn’t have minded coming to fruition but alas it’s dead now just like Snoke. Of course there is canon precedence for a character surviving being cut in half.


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