That’s a bit of a straw man. No one has said here, not that I’ve seen, that Lucas wasn’t a shrewd business man and didn’t like commercial success. It was more about his raison d’etra, aspirations and ‘business model, which differs considerably to Disney’s. I’ve also seen Lucas speak a couple of times, although admittedly I’ve never talked to him face to face, and he came across (like in most situations) like a reserved, thoughtful fella. Not driven by ego at all. I have met Scott before, and whilst I think he’s a great filmmaker, he does channel a lot of ego.

Lucas was never a Hollywood elite. He's always defined himself as a San Francisco filmmaker. There are some in Hollywood who still hate the fact that he's the wealthiest independent filmmaker in history.

Bander, define independent filmmaker. At some point, when you've become the institution, I'm not certain that moniker still applies.

I know what he likes to define himself as, but, I love to define myself as my svelt hockey playing self from my 20's....but I'm not that person any more. If you listen to George talk, it's always about where "he wants to drive the industry, and he's looking to institute this, and working James (cameron) to get this technology accepted, and getting Stephen (Spielberg) to film things this way, etc". This is someone that is innovating at the hollywood level...that defines him as the cutting edge (or at least some time ago he was), which parks him, right in the middle of elite. There aren't a lot of billionaires in hollywood. He's one. There aren't alot of studio owners in hollywood, he's one (or was). I know he casts himself as the oddball out (thrown out of the director's guild, etc) but in the end, if it waddles like a duck and quack likes a duck....it's a duck.

An independent filmmaker is someone who makes films independently and outside the Hollywood system. He's never been a part of the "system," he has created his own system. The "Hollywood Elite" don't even consider him one of them. The Prequels were a huge independent venture. Saying you can't call yourself independent after you've made so much money is kind of silly. The painter Jasper Johns once sold one of his paintings for millions. That doesn't suddenly mean he can't call himself an independent artist anymore.

But anyway...

Totally agree with your points. Lucas is of course an anomaly, in terms of the level of success/cultural impact of some of his films, but as far as I’m concerned he fell into the independent filmmaker criteria... primarliy as he didn’t have to answer to anyone (post 77) but himself, both financially and creatively. Of course, he was also the head of a hugely successful company, so these things are relative... and to paraphrase Lucas himself, he became what he despised. However, I think Lucasfilm under Lucas was closer in spirit to what Apple Corp was under The Beatles circa 1969 i.e. the artists making and bankrolling the creative descions.

Erm... What?!



How and when did that happen, exactly?

I do enjoy how this thread has gone from reviewing The Last Jedi to a referendum on someone who hasn't been involved in the Star Wars franchise for 5 years and 3 films.

I, of course, contributed to this derailing.

Are you asking how he became head of a hugely successfull company?

If you mean Lucas realizing he's become what he despised, here's a quote from "Empire of Dreams".
Personally, I don't think money was his single motivation for creating prequels and planning to create sequels. I choose to believe he's too intelligent for that. But perhaps it's just my Luke-like naivety speaking here .

This.....this is the way of MF.com. Strong it is in the tangents!

Bander, at some point, the idea becomes an institution....this is the way of things, and at that point, it stops being "independent".

"An independent film, independent movie, indie film or indie movie is a feature film that is produced outside the major film studio system, in addition to being produced and distributed by independent entertainment companies."

Star wars was produced by a major studio....and distributed by a major entertainment company.

THX1138 was not...but George stopped being independent after that. He may buck the system....and may have been kicked out of the Director's guild....but he is part of the machine.

Cynicism abounds! But legends are usually more potent and inspiring than the men (or women) behind them all.

What matters is that we not blissfully suffer from the same folly if we should find ourselves in such a position. Let's continue to make our own THX 1138s, in whatever sense we do, and not become more machine than man; twisted and evil.

A thought this this was interesting. Pablo's tweets about Lucas' ideas for the ST villain.

Interesting stuff. I don’t recall the pre-Snoke Uber name mentioned in either of the art books. I’d also forgotten about the Darth Talon tidbit. This is why I’d love to know more about Lucas’s ST ideas, not to lament or complain about what might have been or not been but because it’s fascinating to see the evolution the ideas and concepts go through before they reach the screen. It’s so easy to dismiss these films when they don’t meet our expectations but when I look through the art books or read about the early ideas I’m reminded of just how much hard work and dedication goes into imagining these worlds. Is every idea a good one? No, but none of these artists or filmmakers are looking to make something bad or to ruin Star Wars. (At least I hope not). Like life, the best laid plans sometimes just don’t work out the way we hoped.

I don’t think anyone would suggest that, in terms of pre-production and production, there isn't a lot of craft on display. However, if it were only that simple. When first reading the art of TFA, I was struck by how many really good designs/concepts were ultimately rejected in favour of something I personally found to be inferior/derivative... everything from the look of Han Solo to Jakuu (in my opinion obviously). In terms of design for The Last Jedi, I find less to lement, primarily because I thought Johnson was a bit braver in terms of some of his design choices. Johnson’s mistakes are, IMO, largely to do with narrative, characterisation and plot choices. These were largely created by Abrams, and Johnson had compounded them... everything from emasculating all the antagonists to the point that there is no discernible peril/drama, to making Rey an entirely perfunctory and superfluous character for the final reel. In my opinion, it would have been much more dramatic if Rey had been killed in Snoke’s throne room, and it was Rey’s death that ultimately either turned Kylo back to the light or taken him forever into the dark.

You're not the only one - there are many amazing designs in both "art of" books for TFA/TLJ, that look far more interesting than what ended up on screen.



Rey should have either been killed or severely injured. She should have had her ass handed to her in the first film. We're never going to see her growth as a character. She's gone from scrap metal gatherer, to starship pilot, to starship mechanic to mastering Jedi mind tricks and taking on a trained swordsman - all in one day! Imagine what she could accomplish in one week!

So.....I'm going out on a long, long and very thin limb here, but....

Taking the art of TFA and coupling it with the "news" that Snoke has trained at least one other apprentice....I'm holding out hope that this other apprentice....is Talon.

One of my biggest criticisms of the Sequel trilogy, is that some of the more established races have not been shown. Twi'leks? Nope. Quarren? Nope. Mon Cals? Nope (aside from Ackbar). Gran? Nope. Aqualish? Nope. Etc, etc. In fact, as a huge fan of Astromechs, it made me quite sad that only two astromechs could be seen in TLJ....I know we're supposed to move forward....but we need a bit more of a connection in the fabric....not just the big three (han, leia and luke) Anyway, criticism over....lets hope JJ throws us a bone.

Cryostar, you're not the only one that has noticed an absence of classic OT and PT aliens races. Even in the "Art of" book for TLJ, we see artists concepts with a Twi'lek in a cocktail dress and Gran/Rodian wearing tuxedos, but in the film there is nothing of the sort. I agree, we're supposed to move forward and see new designs, but they should be mixed in with the already existing ones. George did that with the prequels - he gave us old and new designs.

Including an Ithorian, a Rodian, a Twi'lek and a Gran, would have helped sell the Casino scene to me a lot easier. My eye tries to land on something familiar, to help identify this scene as being from "Star Wars" - but it can't even do that. It's more like something out of Babylon 5 or The 5th Element to me.

Yep, also noticed and one of my main criticisms for the ST. Do any of you think it's possible that these designs are all still intellectual property of Lucas(film)? It feels deliberate so I'm thinking there's an economic reasoning behind this decision? It's just a guess of course, I'm in no way an expert on licensing, trademarks and such things.

It certainly may seem that way, but we did see an Aqualish (Ponda Baba) and a Twi'lek in Rogue One.

Speaking of references; here's Easter eggs, cameos, and cross-product tie-ins:

I find that video totally embarrassing. Is it any wonder that Star Wars is currently such a narrative, creative mess (although admittedly financially succesfull) when it’s basically filmmaking by committee, where in an alternate universe, these people wouldn’t get a job in a Disney store. There seems to be actually more thought going into connecting Battlefront to the film than there is thought going into connecting the new films to the old ones.

I found it difficult to watch that thing until the end.

We're supposed to believe that Rey and Kylo's mind/force connection in TFA, gave Rey the ability to use the Force, like a fully fledged Jedi?
In principle, the Force can now be downloaded by a USB? That comes off as some really shitty, mid-90's EU fanfic garbage.
Seems to me, now that Dad (GL) has left, the time has come for the kids to run amok, and do whatever the fuck they want.

Hey, but at least it ties into a mother fucking video game...

I am still trying to get my head around this film. I am having difficulty accepting this as an installment in the Star Wars franchise.
I was wondering to myself; what was the point of introducing a new character (Rose) if they're not going to develop an already established one (Finn).
Abrams/Kasdan introduced a pretty interesting character in TFA; a Stormtrooper that defects and joins the Resistance. You would expect that to be the beginning of a fantastic character arc, but it's completely not the case in TLJ. Instead, his character development is sidelined and we are introduced to a brand new character (Rose) for no purpose!

In ESB, we are introduced to Lando Calrissian. At the same time, we learn a bit more about Han Solo - that he won the Millennium Falcon off Lando in a card game and that the three of them (including Chewie) have a history between them. Lando isn't just there for the sake of being there - his character actually has a reason to be there.

Johnson said that the whole (groan) Canto Bight sub-plot originally was Finn and Poe that go on a mission together, but there wasn't conflict between them (?)

I know... the more I think about it, the more I want to forget it ever happened. Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind...

That's it! This film is easily forgettable. A generic space flick!
I am usually tearing to get back to the cinema, to watch a new Star Wars film. With TLJ, I actually forget it's still playing.
On average, I go to see a new Star Wars film ten times at the cinema - this one, I have only seen three times.

What is so much more evident now, is that Star Wars is no longer pure, escapist entertainment - but a platform for pushing political agendas.
Story telling is not the prime goal here. The focus is on box office results, politics and selling product.
Before the film started, I saw SIX advertisements for current Disney Star Wars product. I do not recall seeing so many toy and video game ads before a Star Wars film before - and this is an observation from a 47 year old man, who has in excess of five thousand Star Wars action figures.

I've been re-watching the prequels over the last week, and have fallen in love with them all over again. My appreciation for them and the work Lucas put into all of the world building, new characters and expanding of lore, has only deepened.

So much to agree with and disagree with here.

I'm happy you've rediscovered the prequels, which I was on board with from day one. The prequels actually tell a very politically oriented story that becomes more literal and relatable in the real world with each successive episode, culminating in Vader's line just before the Mustafar duel (If you're not with me, then you're my enemy). I don't pay prequel haters any attention. They are brilliant storytelling combined with ahead-of-its-time visuals packaged together in a form like nothing seen before or since.

The focus of releasing a film is box office results? Last I checked, boards of directors at film corporations aren't in the business for the charity. I'm happy TLJ crossed the $600 million barrier in box office rentals. The more successful these films are, the better.

I always find it interesting - not trying to pick on you specifically Mike - but people who complain about political messages often don't complain about political messages/agenda when they happen to agree with said message or agenda. Using a film/show/whatever to advance a political agenda is perfectly fine - as long as someone agrees with it. I rolled my eyes a bit at Rose's monologue on Canto Bight, but at the end of the day, it was one line. I moved on. Sort of like I did at a particular half-second that occurred in the 1997 ANH Special Edition release.

Star Wars has been, and always will be, the ultimate escapist vessel for me. That's just how I process it in my head. It works for me. Everyone has their own formula for how they process these films and this story. What works for me might not work for you.

Of course everyone involved wants the film to be a financial box office success - but when they admit that they are writing these as they go along, makes me think that the story isn't as important to them, as the success of the film itself. What struck me in that GL interview with Charlie Rose, when asked about Disney throwing away his treatment - Lucas said "I just wanted to tell a story" - and that's what it should have been about, from the ST's inception.
All I get from Kathleen Kennedy's words are "Strong female leads" and "Representation Matters", and very little to nothing, about the actual narrative itself.





I get it that Women are strong. I get it that animal abuse is wrong. I get it that people who profit from war are bad. I get it that we're a diverse society - I see that shit every single day in the real world. Why do I need to beaten over the head with it, when I sit down to watch a Star Wars film?
Lucas' Star Wars had strong female leads - Leia is the prime example and a pioneer in that regard. We've had diverse races in both human and alien characters in I - VI, but it wasn't rammed down our throats.

Knowing what I do of Mike,for him to not be positive about TLJ would not be his default position of choice as he has been a strident positive fan and not one of the annoyingly too fussy,too critical SW fans and in this case I have to say TLJ did not deliver for me either.

For those who love it I am happy,genuinely cause it is not that I either wish to rain on other's happiness of seeing more SW.

Agree and agree.

For Kathleen Kennedy to come forward and tell the world that "She doesn't owe men anything" is probably the worst PR move you could possibly make.
Congratulations Mrs. Kennedy, with just with those few worlds, you've managed to marginalize a good percentage of your fan base. I do not have a problem with female characters in Star Wars. My house is full of Leia, Padmé, Ahsoka, Ventress, Jyn and Rey merch - but the moment you start to marginalize consumers that are loyal to the fucking brand for 40 years, then it becomes apparent that you've got an ax to grid. You cannot manufacture brand loyalty. You want to keep those consumers satisfied and keep adding new fans each year, while releasing good quality product!

Star Wars was and has always been for everyone. This is why it is a world-wide phenomenon. It's the timeless story, and fantastic characters that transcend cultures, languages, genders and age. When you start telling me that "You don't owe men anything" - then that makes me think that you haven't got a fucking clue, and should step down.

I don’t know what the deal is lately. She’s using Star Wars for some end of life crisis stuff. She’s trying to add meaning to her life perhaps. I’ve pulled back my fandom quite a bit given her religious like fervor she tries to stir up. My wife at the time Star Wars was sold said she didn’t like that woman, I don’t know what she saw but I defended KK. The wife might have been right.
KK is always gonna be a fantastic producer with her history but I wish she wasn’t the face of Lucasfilm. She’s seems either fake or over-zealous. Of course I’m in the Dave filoni for everything camp sooooo.....

When did she say that?

The exact quote;


From this article.

I think she means she doesn’t cater to anyone and just used men as an example. However there does seem to be an undertone to create a problem with previous Star Wars storytelling.That way she might come in and be the hero. It may also be she just likes telling more female driven stories which is fine but because the media overreacts they depict it as if she is revolutionizing the franchise. When in fact she’s a woman and those stories interest her more the same as I’m more interested in Luke Skywalker than the princess.

And boom goes the dynamite

So, in other words, she did not say she "doesn't owe men anything."

But in other's other words, she said whatever we want to pretend she might have said.

Got it. I think. Or not.

You want to see bad PR? Check out Michigan State these days.

I'm just going to leave THIS here.
It's hard to hear what Bergman says at the beginning, but is he saying they used the "first draft" of the script for this movie???

I don’t really care if the new films are full of vegans, flat Earth believers or half baked political messages... I just want them to be well written and engaging. Unfortunately The Last Jedi is just a steaming turd of badly drawn characters, situations and poor plotting.

He is simply saying that they really liked the first draft months before they even started filming. That doesn't mean they used the first draft without rewriting anything.

That's my reading as well.