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millenniumfalcon.com • View topic - MF Reviews VIII
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Post Posted: December 23rd 2017 6:53 pm
 
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Post Posted: December 23rd 2017 7:37 pm
 
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Post Posted: December 24th 2017 12:40 am
 

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Thanks for that. I am usually on the ball with Star Wars - must be slipping in my old age.


Went and saw TLJ again today (my third viewing) with some friends who hadn't seen it yet, and found myself really enjoying it.
I guess the first two times l went in with a sense of dread, and worried that I'd be completely disappointed. Went in relaxed and just concentrated on the story, the plot and the characters and just went with it. Ended up seeing it in a completely different light.

One of my friends who saw it with me today (who's also a writer that's written books and won awards) said that he liked it and didn't understand all the shit that had been levelled at it. He had a couple of tiny nitpicks - but on the whole enjoyed seeing it.


Post Posted: December 24th 2017 2:47 am
 
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Post Posted: December 24th 2017 7:16 am
 
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I guess this is just as a result of a couple of nerds like me being critical...

https://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/20 ... e2e03357fa


Post Posted: December 24th 2017 10:56 am
 
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From all of the complaints that I have read, whether one hates this film or not, seems to fall on one major factor:

Does one believe that Luke would be willing to assassinate his sleeping nephew for being tempted with the Dark Side?

Saying "Yes" to the above also accepts that Luke was willing to lose all of his pupils over his act of neposcide at his academy.

For myself, I can't accept the above two points.

There are a whole host of major plot issues with this film that beggar belief as well. I won't list them again here, because they're easily found everywhere.

This quote nails it quite well:
“the original Star Wars films were about victorious hope, the unity that binds us all and overcoming the evil inside yourself. Luke Skywalker is the embodiment of a character archetype that is as old as storytelling itself. He rises from nothing, pursues knowledge and enlightenment, overcomes despair, becomes a saviour and, through courage and determination, redeems the sins of the ones who came before him. His purpose as a character and as an icon is to personify everything a person should hope to become.

In the Last Jedi, Luke Skywalker contemplates murdering his sister’s and best friend’s son in his sleep, cries in a cave for a few decades while the world around him crumbles, gets lectured by a teenager about responsibility and then dies nonsensically. Knowing that, go look at every other plot point and twist in this movie. This film’s sole purpose isn’t to push things forward or build upon anything. It is reckless subversion for the sake of subversion. It is deconstruction with no meaning or purpose. It is a cynically assembled soapbox, made by people so arrogant and unappreciative that they would stand atop the legacy of one of film’s most quintessential stories just to make a short-sighted point about “leaving the past behind” while tossing some hamfisted political notes at the captive audience.”

The malice that's being ascribed in the above paragraph on behalf of the filmmakers, does it seem like hyperbole to some of the film's supporters?

It shouldn't.

Any film of this scale and importance has its every word hyper-scrutinized long before the scripts are handed over to the actors. It's just not possible that a film that takes a flamethrower to every central tenet of every Lucas film is doing so accidentally. Every bit of it is absolutely deliberate. It's amazing that when this central thesis is accepted (it's undeniable, as Johnson is very vocal on his taking of this approach) that one can conclude that the intentions are out of a sense of "devotion, admiration," or "loyalty" to the heart of the franchise. Any expression on the filmmakers' part of being "hurt" or "shocked" at the anger and frustration that their deliberately malignant product is generating within the hearts and minds of long-devoted fans also has to be disingenuous.

As far as I know, no apologies or hints of regret are being uttered by anyone at Lucasfilm. I'm just stating the above in case they ever do. And if they ever do utter a hint of regret or remorse, it'll be over the many millions of dollars in lost and easy profits they burned away when they torched the heart of Lucas' work.

After multiple attempts of seeing this film in the dear hope of coming to accept what it does, it's hard for me to see a future where I purchase anything further that's Star Wars related. That is a lot of money Disney's losing, and I'm far from being the only one who thinks and feels this way.

They want me to believe that a man who was literally laying his life out to save the soul of his heinous father would also seriously contemplate to assassinate his beloved nephew while he sleeps.

Incredible.

Johnson, Kennedy, Abrams and Hidalgo need to be fired.


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Post Posted: December 24th 2017 3:40 pm
 
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Post Posted: December 24th 2017 4:56 pm
 
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Two points:

a) Don't you guys have families to spend Christmas with?
b) Reading all the butt hurt responses above makes me feel like 2017 is basically, "Episode II - Attack of the Butt hurt Fan boys" because after a remake, Fan boys like the two above screams "wahhhhhhhhhh originality suxs!!!1111"

Can't wait for "Episode III - Revenge of the Fan boys"


Post Posted: December 24th 2017 5:25 pm
 
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Are you referring to me? I loved TLJ.


Post Posted: December 24th 2017 6:22 pm
 
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Post Posted: December 26th 2017 12:23 pm
 
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Post Posted: December 27th 2017 4:00 pm
 
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Post Posted: December 27th 2017 11:44 pm
 
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Freezus and Cryostar;

Are you two EVER capable of presenting a point-by-point, well reasoned, MATURE, and insult FREE response to those who you disagree with?

Every post that I have made has NOT insulted those who like the film in spite of its enormous shortcomings. I've stated myself, several times, that I *GET* why people get caught up in the movie. But this film operates like high fructose corn syrup - gets one's sugar level maximally spiked only to destroy the liver in the end.

How about you PROVE how much "superior" you are than us older fans and DETAIL WITHOUT INSULTS how our observations are WRONG. Try, just once, an ADULT approach to REASONING with someone.

For your benefit, let's pretend that the utter stupidity of Luke lighting up his loud "laser sword" in his beloved nephew's tiny abode was something that Luke was stupid enough to do, keeping in mind that he risked losing the faith of all of his pupils by doing so.

Just make sense of a measly two major plot points that are hammered on by (once) diehard fans everywhere one looks. JUSTIFY their brilliant creativity to us older fans, so that we can finally see The Light, be elevated to your lofty abode so that we can be AWESOME like you.

How is it that the First Order's massive fleet of capital ships can't launch thousands of fighter craft to swiftly swarm and snuff out the ragtag Resistance fleet? Also, why can't the First Order send but a few of their capital ships ahead of thpe Resistance's fleet to intercept them via lightspeed, when they certainly didn't have any fuel shortage issues?

How is that the First Order's massive fleet, with all of their main sensors and magnification devices "totally" focused on the last few Resistance ships, *couldn't* detect the lifeboats fleeing the cruiser? Is the First Order's fleet only capable of seeing from the very outermost edge of its starboard hull to the very outermost edge of its port hull, and magically not beyond? Is Snoke the only individual on that ship to have a mega-magnification lens in his room? Isn't it possible that an older First Order officer had his bifocals on, was looking out the front port and saw the Resistance's lifeboat flotilla launch? Isn't it more than sensible that a few officers per capital ship might've been looking out a window in between sips of blue milk to see if any kind of escape pod was launched? One would think that after the Death Star plans debacle over Tatooine that a lesson or two would've been learned from that mistake.

And there is SO much more...

But I promise to become a steadfast worshiper of all that's splendid and regal when it comes to Freezus and Crystar if either of them can come up with a well reasoned and plausible explanation for these enormous plot holes. After all, the ENTIRE narrative of the film rides on these two genius-level plot points.

If you can't backup your vaunted and lofty superior observations, then PLEASE go back to your playrooms to continue drooling over your toy collection, and let the adults in the room try reasoning with one another.

But I'm confident that your brilliant insights will come shining through, and that you'll be earnest to gently and holistically convert us unintelligent and ignorant older fans to The Light, because this act of self-sacrifice to stoop to our level will call us back to throw our money at Lucasfilm and Disney once more. If you think that their product is so terrific, then naturally you'll want them to prosper.

My prediction though? Not only will you completely fail in sensibly explaining these mere two issues, but for the third film of this trilogy, the ticket sales will be enormously lower; at a minimum, 25% fewer ticket sales, and the overwhelming majority of those losses will be due to "uncaring" and "dumb" 35 years+ fans like me.

I'm ready to convert to well reasoned explanations.

Do your best.


Post Posted: December 28th 2017 10:52 am
 
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Post Posted: December 28th 2017 11:27 am
 
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Post Posted: December 28th 2017 11:53 am
 
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I’m not sure we should get into slanging matches. I think The Last Jedi is an incredibly poor Star Wars film, and I thought TFA was bad enough, but as an oft defender of the prequels, as Cryostar states, it’s everyone's prerogative to like or loathe the films for their own personal reasons... and not to have to explain (unless one wants to)... and I’ll always defend the right to have an opinion, even if it differs from mine and even if it indirectly helps further line the coffers of Disney (an organisation I’m increasingly becoming despondent of)...


Post Posted: December 28th 2017 12:25 pm
 
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From Doctor When:
I’m not sure we should get into slanging matches.

I agree, but as is well and easily demonstrable, Cryostar has zero issues with instantly unleashing pure venom at anyone who seemingly, no matter how formally and reasonably stated, "crosses" his sensibilities.

Between Cryostar and I, he is ALWAYS the one who slings the heavy mud first.

I have NO issues with a person not wanting to respond to a counter-challenge. Be MATURE about it then. Either don't respond at all, or POLITELY decline.

So simple that even my 9 year old son can do it.


Post Posted: December 28th 2017 1:51 pm
 
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Post Posted: December 28th 2017 10:41 pm
 

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What happened to Star Wars and the Mythological/Joseph Campbell inspired works?
Have LFL/Disney even mentioned any of that in relation to these new films?


Post Posted: December 28th 2017 11:34 pm
 
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Campbellian influence was a Lucas quirk. Not much of that in this new era. Painful to accept.


Post Posted: December 29th 2017 12:25 am
 

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Here’s an interesting quote by Ridley Scott in a recent interview with The Hollywood Reporter.

His response to whether he's been asked to direct a Star Wars film:

"No, no. I’m too dangerous for that. Because I know what I’m doing. I think they like to be in control, and I like to be in control myself. When you get a guy who’s done a low-budget movie and you suddenly give him $180 million, it makes no sense whatsoever. It’s fuckin’ stupid."


Post Posted: December 29th 2017 12:27 am
 
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Doctor When - I hear you, and in a multitude of ways.

Mike_Droideka - In terms of your concerns with this film being inspired by classical mythologies from all around the world, in its declared attempts to "turn everything Star Wars upside down," The Last Jedi has also simultaneously done the same to The Hero's Journey. That's my take on it, anyway. Here's my reasoning for my opinion...

For but one example, let's look at Rey, and compare her to Luke.

Without ANY training, she is far more powerful and skilled than Luke ever was in his youth. All around the world, every culture's heroes face strenuous trials to attain much needed knowledge and growth. What did Rey do in the approximate 3-5 days since she discovered her powers in The Force Awakens (I can't give a precise figure on this, but by the time she's expelled by Luke it can't be more than 5 days since her massive powers awoke in her)?

Rey's trials were ZILCH.

NADA.

ZIPPO.

ZERO.

NOTHING at all.

Wait!

She DID do something...!

Let's see...

...She sat on a big rock and had Luke snap a blade of grass on her hand.

...She wielded the Skywalker laser sword to slice a huge thousands-of-years-old training rock in two - a feat never achieved before. And she received no actual laser sword training from Luke.

...She entered a dark hole to look over her shoulder and snap her fingers. A lot. She probably got a small blister from her strenuous snapping efforts.

...She then assaulted her "Master" by smashing him in the head from behind, and with a few swipes felled a warrior who was ACTUALLY TRAINED by two grand master swordsmen, Obi-Wan and Yoda, and who also had decades' worth of practice and experience under his belt.

That's *it.* Those are the "trials" that Rey had to "endure" to advance her already-goddess-powers up not even a noticeable notch.

Yeah, I think it's pretty safe to say that she definitely breaks The Hero's Journey into a million bits. Thank you Johnson, Kennedy, Abrams, and Hidalgo! That's a great role model for this and the coming generations: a person who is just entitled to pure power at awesome levels and doesn't have to sacrifice and work hard at it at all.

Let's look at Luke's journey in comparison...

He finally inherits a magical weapon handcrafted by his slain father, a great warrior by any measure. This weapon is SPECIAL, and is TAILORED to HIM by its very nature.

He worriedly allows his face to be covered to confront a drone that fires painful bolts at him, totally having to take a massive Leap of Faith to block them while blinded.

Watches his mentor duel the second most powerful and evil man in the galaxy, and then see him deliberately sacrifice his life for their escape. That doesn't sound all that original anymore now that The Last Jedi did it better, now does it?

Makes a miraculous shot having to take The Ultimate Leap of Faith in abandoning the crippling aspects of technology so that The Heart is The Great Achiever.

Literally disarms a hungry beast in a cave, to flee its abode, and then suffer a vision to compel him to train under a new master.

Is tested in humorous ways by the then trickster-Yoda.

But then has his back broken in brutally hard training of all kinds.

Enters a buried Sith shrine, and confronts a vision of his deepest and darkest fear, being given a major warning that Nietzsche would've approved of, and is well worth pondering to this day, "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."

Is given numerous warnings, ignores them out of love, suffers a grievous wound and receives a psyche-shattering revelation of his Leviathan's actual identity.

Instantly refuses to kill his sociopath-butcher and mass-enslaving father, even though Yoda and Obi-Wan put enormous pressure on him to do so.

Literally enters the Lion's Den alone to face the two most evil and powerful men the galaxy has ever known, to save his father's soul, in the process turning over his weapon to proceed with the Hero's Fate.

He defeats his father both physically and emotionally. The latter form of "defeat" compels his father to sacrifice his own life to redeem himself by saving his beloved son from the most evil and powerful Dark Side psychopath the galaxy has ever known. Through his father, Luke destroys The Greatest Evil that has ever plagued the galaxy.

There's more, of course, but the evidence speaks clearly for itself. Luke SUFFERED ENORMOUSLY to achieve a seemingly impossible feat. He EARNED it while MAINTAINING HONOR, while Rey...

What did Rey do, exactly?

That's right.

NOTHING. Actually, I'm being too hard on her. She did enter a dark hole, look over her shoulder and snap her fingers.

Now THAT's how GREAT character development is supposed to be. I'm happy that Lucas and The Hero's Journey got soundly schooled by Johnson, Kennedy, Abrams and Hidalgo. Bravo team!

The evidence is overwhelming: they've given us The Ultimate Hero of Pure Entitlement.

What an outstanding role model that our world needs now, more than ever.

To HELL with thousands of years' worth of human wisdom. What do THEY know anyway?

Disney knows better, and they're going way out of their way to ensure that The Correct Path is forced down our throats.

SHAMEFUL.


Post Posted: December 29th 2017 1:20 am
 
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So, there's this new thing....it's called the internet.

I'll I have to do is google "Whining star wars fan boys" and these marvelous images show up on my computer. Then I just "right-click" and "save"

So, you're worth about....that much effort.

As for putting my money, blah blah blah....I did. I've seen it three times, with my kids. I'll see it again, with my kids so Disney continues to produce films that make my kids love star wars. Because, unlike you, I've grown up, and take the movies for the 2 hours of entertainment that they are. I'm not looking for validation for a lifetime of fandom, because, quite simply, my life is more than star wars movies.

Enjoy your fandom, might i suggest TFN's boards.....or maybe writing some slashfic on a BBS somewhere.


Post Posted: December 29th 2017 1:49 am
 
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From Cryostar:
Enjoy your fandom, might i suggest TFN's boards.....or maybe writing some slashfic on a BBS somewhere.

Nah! :bouncin:

I like it RIGHT HERE.

And I certainly won't be going anywhere else, nor will I follow your advice, which is just about as worthless as your ability to desire something a little more meaningful out of one's entertainment than finding the bare minimum fuel to justify purchasing actual toys. See, that's something that kids do. An "adult" such as yourself SHOULD know better.

Do you imagine "pew-pew" noises when you gaze at them, or do you literally vocalize the sounds? From the overwhelming evidence of your endless pedantic, childish behavior, and a complete inability to defend one's cherished position, I bet it's the latter.

Your efforts to cut me, and MANY others off, from expressing our thoughts and opinions is quite disturbing.

I'm sure that you'd find Snoke's throne a perfect fit for your behind and your totalitarian state of mind.

It's too bad that words wound you so deeply that you find yourself completely incapable of behaving like a mature adult about it. Words can't actually hurt you, you know. The pain you feel is only real because it's what you want to feel. That's...sad. Don't project it out on the legions of us who disagree with your opinion, no matter how mighty you imagine it must be. The fact that it can be so easily vaunted must disturb you deeply to always respond so childishly.

Now shoofly- go play "pew-pew" in the other room and allow the adults to actually reason with one another.


Post Posted: December 29th 2017 2:13 am
 
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Post Posted: December 29th 2017 2:57 am
 
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There’s literally nothing in either The Last Jedi or The Force Awakens to qualify Rey’s abilities. It’s modern filmmaking for audiences (which isn’t a criticism of those who liked it) whom are less into narrative development and plotting than they are into a series of action scenes being linked together by scenes of not too clever faced paced and ‘witty’ character banter. The main problem for me, with the new films, is there’s no narrative and cinematic context to them. I find lines of dialogue from Jurrasic Park strangely apt...

“Um, I'll tell you the problem with the scientific power that you're using here, it didn't require any discipline to attain it. You read what others had done and you took the next step. You didn't earn the knowledge for yourselves, so you don't take any responsibility for it. You stood on the shoulders of geniuses to accomplish something as fast as you could, and before you even knew what you had, you patented it, and packaged it, and slapped it on a plastic lunchbox, and now... the sequels...”.


Post Posted: December 29th 2017 8:39 am
 
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Post Posted: December 29th 2017 10:07 am
 

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When and Kyle have some good points... took my under 11 kids yesterday. They loved it. Its the best Marvel movie to date! Its like a cover band says they are Led Zeppelin, and they really sound like Led Zeppelin, if you squint, they sort of look like Led Zeppelin... but its not 1972... and its not Led Zeppelin, but I really want to relive my youth.


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Post Posted: December 29th 2017 3:18 pm
 
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I’ll defend most thing Star Wars, but it would be rather foolish to believe any and every one of them beyond critisism. Even the strong films are not ‘perfect’, and this one in particular has HUGE issues in my opinion, borne not from bad technicians per se, but more as a result as the industrialisation of Star Wars as a franchise. But what’s on screen is of course open to interpretation, regardless of wether or not Disney are increasingly driven by pushing products to market... quantity jeopardising quality etc.


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Post Posted: December 30th 2017 10:27 am
 
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The Prequels were about selling toys. If you think it's anything but that....you're fooling yourself.

The reason Lucasfilm was sold to Disney is because the business models match up. Disney is about selling product. Everything, is about selling product. Don't believe me, go google Walt Disney's business architecture. It's very simple. Lucasfilm was the same. Everything in that company was about selling merchandise. That's where the money is. It was a bonus that the films actually make money.

That's why, even of Solo tanks, it will be a win, because the merchandise will be a profit for Disney. Toys, clothes and every other related junk (Anyone seen a Nissan commercial as of late?)

Again, it's time to grow up. These aren't your movies. They never were. Enjoy them for what they are. As someone that wore out a VHS tape of ANH watching it, I'm fine....again, my girls love star wars....and that gives me something to talk with them about and a love we can share together. I'm sorry that you don't like Rey, or how she got her powers. I'm sorry that everything has to fit your preconceived Egyptian and Shakespearean models....and if it's not the old way, it's the wrong way. But you're wrong. The Last Jedi will pass $1 billion this weekend....that tells you everything you need to know.

Let it rest and understand that no one cares about your minority opinion.


Post Posted: December 30th 2017 11:53 am
 

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Hey I've been a long time lurker (since before Revenge of The Sith I believe). Sorry for my poor English in advance...

I understand that many people liked the movie. I also understand why a lot hated it.

The plot I disliked the most in TLJ is the entire hyperspace tracking thing. If Obi Wan can throw a little pocket gps on Slave 1 to tail it from Kamino to Geonosis, then what is the novelty that made the Supremacy so fearsome? Also, a far better reason for the slow pursuit would have been that Snoke wanted Leia alive (to test Kylo or to lure Luke out I don't know) and they just chased it until the fuel ran out. Finn's subplot could have been to kidnap the architect of the Supremacy on Canto Bight and force him to help him & Rose board the Supremacy and disable the tracking thing so our heroes get one last Hyperspace Jump. The rest could have played out exactly the same but the First Order wouldn't have felt like an incompetent Bond villain unable to destroy one simple ship.

All the other story plots I'm okay with, really. Even Luke's fate and the reason Kylo fell to the dark side. Heck, I'm even okay that we still not know exactly who Snoke is or was.

Lastly, I'd like to say that the humor and dialogue is really contemporary. The entire film feels modern and yeah, older fans really need to realize and accept that.


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Post Posted: January 1st 2018 6:18 am
 
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Post Posted: January 1st 2018 1:06 pm
 
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“Darth Vader... only you could be so bold. The Imperial senate will not sit still for this”. Star Wars never really used contemporary sounding dialogue/language. It was certainly ‘of its time’, but Lucas intentionally went for highly stylised dialogue.


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Post Posted: January 1st 2018 7:58 pm
 
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Yes, but Disney / Kennedy also let Johnson take the story in the direction of his choosing. In turn, the movie is significantly less conventional than a typical Hollywood movie-by-committee. For me, there's a lot to appreciate with the apparent hands-off approach to Johnson's work.


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Post Posted: January 2nd 2018 9:50 am
 
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There are urban legends that the entire reason for the Star Wars Special Edition trilogy in 1997 was so that Lucas could alter the films just enough such that he wouldn't have to keep sending slices of the profits of those films to his ex-wife.

Entering the PT, I think he knew the films would be profitable. The US box office from Episode 1 alone ($431 million) paid for the making of the entire prequel trilogy ($350 million for all 3 films). But being a creative person, he'd always had the itch to tel the story of the PT. I think his storytelling instinct was the driving force, because he knew the profits would be there regardless.

Going all the way back to the Disney purchase in 2012, I reacted to the initial news with a lot of cynicism. Because the making of Episode 7 was so prominent in the press release, it felt to me like Disney was saying "Yeah, we just paid $4 billion for this franchise, and we need to find a way to make our money back ASAP."

So from the beginning, it felt to me like the primary motivation for the existence of the PT was to pay back the Disney investors which helped it to come up with the $4 billion. Was profit a motivator for Lucas in making the PT? Sure. But in my mind, it was secondary to a creative motivation to tell the backstory of the OT. With the ST, it feels the reverse to me.


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Post Posted: January 2nd 2018 8:22 pm
 
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Then, why didn't he make a follow up to THX1138? Because he didn't. He didn't make an independent film. He made a block buster....he hired names. He had VFX. He came back to star wars, because it's a machine.

You guys can think of George however you want, but the man is worth 5 Billion dollars....and Billionaires don't think like you and I. Millionaires don't think like that. He could have made star wars....without the toys. But he didn't. Without the marketing...but he didn't. Why is that? If you've ever heard him speak in person (I have, twice), you'll know that ego drives this man. He's an elite in hollywood and he's keen on keeping that status. Same as Ridley Scott and James Cameron. Otherwise, they'd all go the route of Sophia Copola.


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