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Post Posted: December 28th 2017 1:21 pm
 
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So at this point it's pretty clear that Ben is the last remaining member of Anakin's family-tree and that things aren't really looking too good for the Skywalker line in terms of legacy or future generations.

Do any of you foresee any other outcome for Ben in Episode IX besides death? Is there any possible way the character can be redeemed and survive or is his death assured?

If his death is a foregone conclusion, how do you feel about the Skywalker line ending (technically it already has since he's a Solo, but you know what I mean).


Post Posted: December 29th 2017 1:09 am
 
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Kathleen has previously stated that EPIX is the end of the skywalker saga....sounds like the story is already written.


Post Posted: December 29th 2017 1:18 am
 

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I took numerous university courses on ancient near-Eastern and classical history. I was even beckoned to go on an archaeological dig in Egypt, which I was very sadly far too poor to pay for. I mention this so that the weight of what I'm about to state can be measured...

As far as I know, there has never been a myth where patricide does not end with the murderer's death or the delivery of a consequence so severe, it's akin to death; that is, an enormously robust transformation.

The murderous child of his father has NO ESCAPE from the consequences. Again, as far as I know (and I've studied world mythologies a lot), patricide always equals a death to the murdering child.

That's probably a big reason why Lucas refused to have Luke kill his father. Lucas was enamored with thousands of years' worth of human wisdom encapsulated in The Hero's Journey. I have no doubts that Lucas would've had a very hard time with allowing Luke to escape a fate from a schema that Lucas was deeply steeped in. Lucas, in fact, has stated this himself. This is a nearly perfect quote of what he said in an interview, "The father is redeemed in his older years by his younger son. It's a cycle..." There can be no redemption of the father if the son has murdered him, and thus the severe consequences for a child who slays his/her father.

All of that said, what Lucasfilm/Disney will do with Ben is anyone's guess. Via The Last Jedi, they deliberately and totally smashed The Hero's Journey on its head, dashing its brains out. For evidence of this, reference my Reply to an earlier posted question on this topic here: http://millenniumfalcon.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=179538#p179538

Will Ben be redeemed? If we're following the central repeating mythical tenets of numerous culture's around the planet, he shouldn't be.

A more interesting question, to me, anyway, is would Luke have given up on him? Based on never giving up on his sociopath-butcher and mass-enslaving father, the answer should've been a resounding "No." Luke would never have given up on Ben, a family member that he not only knew far better than his father, but who he also literally raised and nurtured.

Luke might very well pester Ben in the next film, being that Ben has no conscious Luke will be it for him.

From what I've read, the Skywalkers will all be dead by the end of Episode IX. I think that the odds are overwhelming that Ben will die, but will be it be as a pure monster or in some final Last Gasp redemptive act is yet to be seen. It's very challenging for me to imagine a way that his end could somehow be redemptive in nature. The last Skywalker will very likely be of a very black heart.

As can be found in my previous posts, I was excited to see Skywalker-free Star Wars movies, but after the train wreck of The Last Jedi, I'm completely disenchanted as to where Abrams/Kennedy/Johnson/Hidalgo are going to steer this hearse.


Post Posted: December 29th 2017 11:35 am
 

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So whilst I imagine Disney want to open up the Star Wars universe in order to have, for example, Captain Phasma fighting Doctor Strange, I suspect Disney will never move that far away from the Skywalker clan. They haven’t even got the imagination to move away from stormtroopers and Death Star’s let alone Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker and Luke. I can’t blame them for wanting to hold onto such strong cinematic iconography as Vader’s mask and X-Wings, but boy is it lacking in creative intelligence at the moment... in my opinion of course.


Post Posted: December 29th 2017 11:50 am
 

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...but, big ass slow bombers! that crumble, and have to "drop" a payload in space...


Post Posted: December 29th 2017 12:52 pm
 
OBGYN
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I'd love to see him get killed and not be redeemed. Like Macbeth or Richard III. Just kill the fucking bastard. :jango: :funkyvflamethrower:


Post Posted: December 29th 2017 3:24 pm
 

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Even now, I still think there’s opportunity to end the ST on a high by perhaps ending it with Rey joining the darkside and Kylo being redeemed etc. etc. But the OT characters are already fu**ed in my opinion.


Post Posted: December 31st 2017 9:59 am
 

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I’ve been expecting that he’ll be badly injured and put in a suit just for the sake of irony.


Post Posted: December 31st 2017 1:03 pm
 
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I still believe Rey is related to Kenobi.
And this is why they are holding off announcing the Kenobi stand alone film to add the element of surprise.
The reveal of this heritage in IX will drive interest into the Kenobi Film. She might even be part Mandalorian.

I am leaning towards Kylo being redeemed by Rey and you will again have a Skywalker and Kenobi defending the galaxy ala The Clone Wars.
Rey will do for a Skywalker (Kylo) what Obi-Wan could not do for Anakin (redeem him).
This ties-in/raps up/brings full circle the sequel trilogy along with I-VI as Abrams stated it would.
I think they will leave the door open to X-XII but it will be ten years from now and Rey and Kylo will defend the galaxy from an outside force.
They will re-introduce/reboot the Vong and that will be the unifying event that will bring the Empire/First Order and the Rebellion/Republic together.
A new, symbiotic relationship like Qui-Gon & Obi-Wan talk about in TPM.

The Skywalker saga will end after XII.


Post Posted: January 1st 2018 7:11 pm
 
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Prior to watching TLJ, I would be open to theories about Kenobi lineage. However, that seems to be old-world Star Wars theorizing. In turn, it seems to be too conventional a surprise for the sequel to TLJ.

I do think that there are twists to be had with Rey. The mirror sequence led me to believe that the now debunked reincarnation angle was being followed. Rey being a reincarnation of a Choose One or the First Jedi would add weight to Yoda's comment about her already knowing everything in the Jedi text. So, there's an opening if Abrams wants to go this direction.

If Rey's past requires further discussion, I would hope that Force ghost Luke would do the explaining a la Sir Alec's Obi-wan in ROTJ. For me, such a scene would help to take the sting out of Luke's surprising character arc in TLJ.


Post Posted: January 2nd 2018 1:54 pm
 
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I interpreted Rey's cave moment as being a message that she should not worry about who her parents are, and that it's more important that she focus on her own journey.

I think Kyle's points are spot on - patricides are always, always punished somehow, with their death usually being a foregone conclusion.

I can only see two ways that the Skywalker line continues post Episode 9:

1) Kylo gets quickly redeemed, gets it on with Rey, and then shortly thereafter dies somehow.
2) The old fan-theory that it was Han himself who activated Kylo's lightsaber ends up being true.

Option 2 would be tough to pull off but not utterly impossible, and would be a pretty huge reveal for Episode 9.

Option 1 seems to be the only other logical way to get themselves out of the corner they've put themselves in.

This is all assuming that they would actually want to keep the Skywalker line going though. With 40 years of marketing and world-wide brand recognition on par with Coca-Cola, I personally feel that it would be insane for Disney to put a knife through it (and would make their shareholders scream bloody murder), but after the Last Jedi I'm realizing that Disney and Kennedy don't actually seem all that invested in the Skywalkers and that all bets are off when it comes to where they are planning to take this franchise.


Post Posted: January 3rd 2018 7:44 am
 
OBGYN
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I thought it was stated by Lucas himself back in 2012 that Episodes 7, 8 and 9 would mark the end of the Skywalker's story.


Post Posted: January 3rd 2018 9:11 am
 
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George's original plan, back in the day, was for 12 films....he later dialed it back, but I think, knowing George, he like would have made all 12. See the article below:

http://www.slashfilm.com/star-wars-bits ... -republic/


Post Posted: January 4th 2018 7:03 am
 
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Cryostar wrote:
George's original plan, back in the day, was for 12 films....he later dialed it back, but I think, knowing George, he like would have made all 12. See the article below:

http://www.slashfilm.com/star-wars-bits ... -republic/

Timothy Zahn wrote:
But one of the things I’d really like to see, and this would fit very nicely with Disney, as far as I can remember we’ve never seen a really good family relationship in Star Wars. We’ve had neurotic relationships and even outright antagonism with Luke and Vader. But I’d like to see Luke and his son or grandson have a true bond, a functional family relationship.
:XD:


Post Posted: February 4th 2018 6:34 am
 

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Reading this Thread, i'd agree that there's more than likely a comeuppance for Kylo/Ben.

Some oddities that have floated through the brain pan how this Saga could end/continue, that i'd like to share ...

A Corny idea, but what if Rey's a Clone of Luke ? The Cave sequence on TLJ could be symbolic of such a notion.

That could keep the Skywalker bloodline as a continuing thread and there would be a Familial opposite to Ben Solo.

Also, aside from New Order vs Resistance/Rebels what if another faction comes into play ? A conglomeration
of organised Pirates/Ne'erdowells and the like (maybe with their own Force sensitives in the mix)

A one legged Boba Fett thrown in with a couple of Mandalorian garbed acolytes led by a Sith Witch at their
core perhaps. Their fleet a rag tag selection of old and new craft (Trade federation craft pimped with
Smuggler tech/ re-purposed iconic vehicles with new shapes)

A threat so ambiguous to the old contrasts of Goody Vs Baddy that the status quo is redifined to such an
extent, that Kylo Ren is good by comparison.

An opportunity for an about turn for the unredeemable.

What if Snoke was Palpatine was Plagueis was whoever came before?

Darth Sidious in episode III, the scene of Anakins inauguration the wheezy discordance.

A vessel possessed by spirits passed ?

A Ghostly puppetmaster with vast riches stashed, who returns in gnarled forms (Darksides toll)

The power of foreseeing, ragged tattered visions of futures untold. The Plagueis paradox ability to
bring into being via the Midi Chlorian manipulations of sentients biology, new Force gifted life.

That only the strongest subjects survive, seeding the universe with chaos.

The puppetmaster as an eternal nemesis throughout the generations.

A new face for a new Trilogy.


Post Posted: February 4th 2018 9:07 am
 
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It's all such a clusterf**k now that I am really finding it hard to be interested in what they do.


Post Posted: February 4th 2018 4:02 pm
 

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I still can't get over the fact that they're writing this trilogy as they go.


Post Posted: February 5th 2018 7:48 am
 
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Mike_Droideka wrote:
I still can't get over the fact that they're writing this trilogy as they go.


How is that much different from the original trilogy?


Post Posted: February 8th 2018 12:22 pm
 
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It's not. Believing that George had a grand plan for the OT is revisionist.


Post Posted: February 21st 2018 10:22 am
 

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Lucas didn't know if he would even be allowed to make a sequel. Disney doesn't have this excuse. They also don't have a benefit of one main storyteller to provide at least some semblance of consistency. They didn't even have EU stories since they discarded them. Certainly Star Wars (1977) provided enough information about Luke and the universe he inhabited to make for a satisfying coming of age story. By contrast, Abrams admitted he didn't have a clue about Rey's origins and left it to Johnson to decide. That's storytelling 101. I'm sure he didn't know about why Ben fell to the dark side or how the New Republic (the former Rebels) allowed a much bigger Death Star to be built or why Luke was behaving like a coward. He just set up his idiotic mystery box hoping someone else would untangle it.


Post Posted: February 21st 2018 2:48 pm
 
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So what was the excuse for Leia being the other or the second Death Star? Isn’t that also “lazy storytelling?”


Post Posted: February 21st 2018 10:56 pm
 

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No one is saying all Lucas's ideas worked out great but there's usually a reasoning behind his decisions (i.e. Leia became a sister because he felt he didn't have time to introduce a new character), another Death Star happened because he couldn't do two Death Stars and an Imperial City (at least DSII was used in a different way from ANH). Despite all that the OT is still way more consistent and doesn't rely on the outside sources to explain the basic world building or character development. You can't blame the fans for coming up with all sorts of theories to explain Rey's super powers so different from what came before (ironically, most of them were better than the final product).


Post Posted: February 22nd 2018 11:37 pm
 
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I don't really understand your point, though. Is your argument that it's OK for ROTJ to have undercooked or repetitive elements because it was still the product of a single creative vision? I don't care what Lucas' reasoning is, it doesn't stop those beats from being less successful aspects to the OT. We overlook that because, well, we love those movies.

Empire Strikes Back is my favourite movie of all time, but that doesn't mean that there aren't several leaps of faith the audience has to make for that movie to work. How did Luke go from clumsily waving a lightsaber at a wompa to skilled swordsman who can take on Vader in just a few days? Why did the Empire deactivate the hyperdrive on the Falcon rather than just blowing up the ship? How did Luke know that he could communicate telepathically with Leia? Where did he learn that Force power? So yes, I also want to know why Rey is so skilled (I think we got the hint of an explanation in TLJ with Snoke's line "darkness rises, and light to meet it") but let's not pretend that Luke didn't get real good real fast.

Ultimately, I don't care how many cooks are in the kitchen as long as the story beats pay off. I was irritated by Starkiller Base as much as it sounds like you were, and I thought the second half of TFA was worse for it, but I did think that the characters were great and there was enough set up for the story to go in a bunch of interesting directions. All I care about is for the ST to feel necessary, and finish the tale of the Skywalker family. I hope Episode 9 fulfills that.


Post Posted: February 23rd 2018 5:58 pm
 

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It’s not that the sequels are “undercooked”, it’s that they are raw. For example, it takes Luke 2 films to confront Vader, and even then he is soundly defeated. That Luke goes from swatting Wampa’s to duelling Vader in the space of a ‘few days’ is just the economy of filmmaking. The film (TESB) is at pains to show Luke going through intensive training with Yoda. That development is a significant and specific element of the plot and film. Rey on the other hand, goes head to head, and soundly defeats, Kylo Ren without any training... indeed, she’s never even used a lightsabre (she doesn’t even have any real lessons from Luke in TLJ). So it’s really not comparable... the sequels aren’t being economic, they simple avoid building the narrative. The net result is, IMO, that characters and situations are undermined by poor writing. They are not believable and the drama, which these films rely on, lacks credibility. I’d agree that TFA does a good job of establishing the main characters, but they are just not developed... either within TFA or TLJ.


Post Posted: February 25th 2018 11:25 pm
 
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Doctor When wrote:
It’s not that the sequels are “undercooked”, it’s that they are raw. For example, it takes Luke 2 films to confront Vader, and even then he is soundly defeated. That Luke goes from swatting Wampa’s to duelling Vader in the space of a ‘few days’ is just the economy of filmmaking. The film (TESB) is at pains to show Luke going through intensive training with Yoda. That development is a significant and specific element of the plot and film. Rey on the other hand, goes head to head, and soundly defeats, Kylo Ren without any training... indeed, she’s never even used a lightsabre (she doesn’t even have any real lessons from Luke in TLJ). So it’s really not comparable... the sequels aren’t being economic, they simple avoid building the narrative. The net result is, IMO, that characters and situations are undermined by poor writing. They are not believable and the drama, which these films rely on, lacks credibility. I’d agree that TFA does a good job of establishing the main characters, but they are just not developed... either within TFA or TLJ.


You're making an argument that ESB's internal logic adequately sets up that Luke should be able to take on Vader. That his time on Dagobah, however brief it is, was enough for the audience to buy that he has grown as a warrior. Obviously, I agree because I too understand that in a 2-hour movie you can only do so much, and that screen time should be used primarily to deliver drama, not exposition.

Early in TFA, Rey is set up as a scrappy fighter and a survivor. Someone who is clearly capable of handling herself with a weapon. Is this the same as being proficient with a lightsaber? Arguably not, but we'll get to that. Later in the film, when she takes on Kylo Ren, a few important developments have occurred:

1. Kylo Ren has been mortally wounded after being shot in the stomach by Chewbacca's bowcaster, which the film sets up on multiple occasions to have explosive power

2. Kylo Ren has been slashed in the arm with a lightsaber by Finn

Despite this, and the fact that Kylo is basically bleeding out during the fight, Rey is never able to control the action: she's being overpowered, toyed with, and is retreating for all of the fight before the film decides to give her a "hero moment." And although she's been set up as being fairly proficient with a staff as a weapon, she awkwardly handles the lightsaber during the fight. So, to compare Rey "soundly defeating" Kylo Ren to Vader "soundly defeating" Luke is disingenuous.

If you want to argue that she shouldn't have been able to use the Force to grab the lightsaber, or perform mind tricks and all that, I'm there with you. JJ has said that she actually starts to learn how to use her power during Kylo Ren's interrogation where she taps into his mind, but I don't think that's properly developed. If it were, I don't think you'd have the same level of speculation that she had to have either been from some special bloodline or that she had been previously trained.

I would argue, however, that Rey was more developed in TLJ from a Force power perspective. Luke did teach her how to connect with her power more deeply and acknowledges that she truly has rare strength. There's also an entire lightsaber practice sequence. Again, using your ESB argument, I can draw just as much from that as I can Yoda's two training sequences. Not to mention Rey still looks sloppy in her fight with Snoke's guards, and doesn't dispatch them so easily.


Post Posted: February 26th 2018 10:54 pm
 

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CoGro wrote:
Doctor When wrote:
It’s not that the sequels are “undercooked”, it’s that they are raw. For example, it takes Luke 2 films to confront Vader, and even then he is soundly defeated. That Luke goes from swatting Wampa’s to duelling Vader in the space of a ‘few days’ is just the economy of filmmaking. The film (TESB) is at pains to show Luke going through intensive training with Yoda. That development is a significant and specific element of the plot and film. Rey on the other hand, goes head to head, and soundly defeats, Kylo Ren without any training... indeed, she’s never even used a lightsabre (she doesn’t even have any real lessons from Luke in TLJ). So it’s really not comparable... the sequels aren’t being economic, they simple avoid building the narrative. The net result is, IMO, that characters and situations are undermined by poor writing. They are not believable and the drama, which these films rely on, lacks credibility. I’d agree that TFA does a good job of establishing the main characters, but they are just not developed... either within TFA or TLJ.


You're making an argument that ESB's internal logic adequately sets up that Luke should be able to take on Vader. That his time on Dagobah, however brief it is, was enough for the audience to buy that he has grown as a warrior. Obviously, I agree because I too understand that in a 2-hour movie you can only do so much, and that screen time should be used primarily to deliver drama, not exposition.

Early in TFA, Rey is set up as a scrappy fighter and a survivor. Someone who is clearly capable of handling herself with a weapon. Is this the same as being proficient with a lightsaber? Arguably not, but we'll get to that. Later in the film, when she takes on Kylo Ren, a few important developments have occurred:

1. Kylo Ren has been mortally wounded after being shot in the stomach by Chewbacca's bowcaster, which the film sets up on multiple occasions to have explosive power

2. Kylo Ren has been slashed in the arm with a lightsaber by Finn

Despite this, and the fact that Kylo is basically bleeding out during the fight, Rey is never able to control the action: she's being overpowered, toyed with, and is retreating for all of the fight before the film decides to give her a "hero moment." And although she's been set up as being fairly proficient with a staff as a weapon, she awkwardly handles the lightsaber during the fight. So, to compare Rey "soundly defeating" Kylo Ren to Vader "soundly defeating" Luke is disingenuous.

If you want to argue that she shouldn't have been able to use the Force to grab the lightsaber, or perform mind tricks and all that, I'm there with you. JJ has said that she actually starts to learn how to use her power during Kylo Ren's interrogation where she taps into his mind, but I don't think that's properly developed. If it were, I don't think you'd have the same level of speculation that she had to have either been from some special bloodline or that she had been previously trained.

I would argue, however, that Rey was more developed in TLJ from a Force power perspective. Luke did teach her how to connect with her power more deeply and acknowledges that she truly has rare strength. There's also an entire lightsaber practice sequence. Again, using your ESB argument, I can draw just as much from that as I can Yoda's two training sequences. Not to mention Rey still looks sloppy in her fight with Snoke's guards, and doesn't dispatch them so easily.


It's pretty obvious to the 4 year old I was when The Empire Strikes Back was released that Luke had being doing lightsaber training since A New Hope. Or do you think he just stored it away on the Millennium Falcon and never touched it again during the entire time between movies? And not only was Luke freezing cold, so therefore not exactly 100%, when he used his lightsaber against the Wampa but we only see him use it for a couple of seconds which isn't long enough to judge his proficiency at that point in the movie. Plus Yoda even said that Luke wasn't ready to face Vader yet and Luke lost the duel anyway so you have no point. Meanwhile Rey is magic Mary Sue who can do anything because feminism. 4 year old me could have written a better story for the (fake) sequel trilogy.


Post Posted: February 27th 2018 3:33 pm
 

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CoGro wrote:
Doctor When wrote:
It’s not that the sequels are “undercooked”, it’s that they are raw. For example, it takes Luke 2 films to confront Vader, and even then he is soundly defeated. That Luke goes from swatting Wampa’s to duelling Vader in the space of a ‘few days’ is just the economy of filmmaking. The film (TESB) is at pains to show Luke going through intensive training with Yoda. That development is a significant and specific element of the plot and film. Rey on the other hand, goes head to head, and soundly defeats, Kylo Ren without any training... indeed, she’s never even used a lightsabre (she doesn’t even have any real lessons from Luke in TLJ). So it’s really not comparable... the sequels aren’t being economic, they simple avoid building the narrative. The net result is, IMO, that characters and situations are undermined by poor writing. They are not believable and the drama, which these films rely on, lacks credibility. I’d agree that TFA does a good job of establishing the main characters, but they are just not developed... either within TFA or TLJ.


You're making an argument that ESB's internal logic adequately sets up that Luke should be able to take on Vader. That his time on Dagobah, however brief it is, was enough for the audience to buy that he has grown as a warrior. Obviously, I agree because I too understand that in a 2-hour movie you can only do so much, and that screen time should be used primarily to deliver drama, not exposition.

Early in TFA, Rey is set up as a scrappy fighter and a survivor. Someone who is clearly capable of handling herself with a weapon. Is this the same as being proficient with a lightsaber? Arguably not, but we'll get to that. Later in the film, when she takes on Kylo Ren, a few important developments have occurred:

1. Kylo Ren has been mortally wounded after being shot in the stomach by Chewbacca's bowcaster, which the film sets up on multiple occasions to have explosive power

2. Kylo Ren has been slashed in the arm with a lightsaber by Finn

Despite this, and the fact that Kylo is basically bleeding out during the fight, Rey is never able to control the action: she's being overpowered, toyed with, and is retreating for all of the fight before the film decides to give her a "hero moment." And although she's been set up as being fairly proficient with a staff as a weapon, she awkwardly handles the lightsaber during the fight. So, to compare Rey "soundly defeating" Kylo Ren to Vader "soundly defeating" Luke is disingenuous.

If you want to argue that she shouldn't have been able to use the Force to grab the lightsaber, or perform mind tricks and all that, I'm there with you. JJ has said that she actually starts to learn how to use her power during Kylo Ren's interrogation where she taps into his mind, but I don't think that's properly developed. If it were, I don't think you'd have the same level of speculation that she had to have either been from some special bloodline or that she had been previously trained.

I would argue, however, that Rey was more developed in TLJ from a Force power perspective. Luke did teach her how to connect with her power more deeply and acknowledges that she truly has rare strength. There's also an entire lightsaber practice sequence. Again, using your ESB argument, I can draw just as much from that as I can Yoda's two training sequences. Not to mention Rey still looks sloppy in her fight with Snoke's guards, and doesn't dispatch them so easily.


Firstly I’d point out that Kylo Ren wasn’t “mortally wounded” as he’s still alive in TLJ... so clearly the injury couldn’t have been that bad right... given that he’s in action literally 10 minutes later (based on the TFA/TLJ timeline)? I’d agree that the film establishes Rey can melee, but the issue is that the previous 6 films have show us that to wield a sabre takes considerable skill and finesse, and not just an aptitude for twating someone with a stick. Same applies with Rey’s use of the force.

Now I personally don’t have an issue with not slavishly adhering to what’s been established in previous films/lore. Whatever moves the narrative/story on. It’s the fact that there’s little to no effort taken to write/logically convey a contrary take on established behaviour/methods/character, which works only to undermine the progression of new stories/characters, that really make the sequels a poor outing (IMO).

Re. Luke’s training versus Rey’s. Again, I wholeheartedly disagree. TESB purposely conveys that Luke has undergone intensive training, but is not proficient enough to confront Vader. And guess what? Luke is defeated. TLJ, conversely, shows the audience that Rey gets minimum training time, yet she still has the ability to successfully go head to head with (we assume) elite praetorian guards and Kylo (again). This only works to undermine the character of Luke (not that important if one isn’t invested in his character) and ultimately cheapens Rey’s journey/achievements. She has no obstacles to work to overcome. She doesn’t know defeat etc. etc. which all leads, IMO, to an incredible lack of drama and peril in the sequels. I think trying to argue that the the sequels, thus far, show that Rey has abilities relative to her training, a la Luke in the OT, is a stretch... especially given than this element is the bane of many fans.


Post Posted: February 27th 2018 4:51 pm
 

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Doctor When wrote:
CoGro wrote:
Doctor When wrote:
It’s not that the sequels are “undercooked”, it’s that they are raw. For example, it takes Luke 2 films to confront Vader, and even then he is soundly defeated. That Luke goes from swatting Wampa’s to duelling Vader in the space of a ‘few days’ is just the economy of filmmaking. The film (TESB) is at pains to show Luke going through intensive training with Yoda. That development is a significant and specific element of the plot and film. Rey on the other hand, goes head to head, and soundly defeats, Kylo Ren without any training... indeed, she’s never even used a lightsabre (she doesn’t even have any real lessons from Luke in TLJ). So it’s really not comparable... the sequels aren’t being economic, they simple avoid building the narrative. The net result is, IMO, that characters and situations are undermined by poor writing. They are not believable and the drama, which these films rely on, lacks credibility. I’d agree that TFA does a good job of establishing the main characters, but they are just not developed... either within TFA or TLJ.


You're making an argument that ESB's internal logic adequately sets up that Luke should be able to take on Vader. That his time on Dagobah, however brief it is, was enough for the audience to buy that he has grown as a warrior. Obviously, I agree because I too understand that in a 2-hour movie you can only do so much, and that screen time should be used primarily to deliver drama, not exposition.

Early in TFA, Rey is set up as a scrappy fighter and a survivor. Someone who is clearly capable of handling herself with a weapon. Is this the same as being proficient with a lightsaber? Arguably not, but we'll get to that. Later in the film, when she takes on Kylo Ren, a few important developments have occurred:

1. Kylo Ren has been mortally wounded after being shot in the stomach by Chewbacca's bowcaster, which the film sets up on multiple occasions to have explosive power

2. Kylo Ren has been slashed in the arm with a lightsaber by Finn

Despite this, and the fact that Kylo is basically bleeding out during the fight, Rey is never able to control the action: she's being overpowered, toyed with, and is retreating for all of the fight before the film decides to give her a "hero moment." And although she's been set up as being fairly proficient with a staff as a weapon, she awkwardly handles the lightsaber during the fight. So, to compare Rey "soundly defeating" Kylo Ren to Vader "soundly defeating" Luke is disingenuous.

If you want to argue that she shouldn't have been able to use the Force to grab the lightsaber, or perform mind tricks and all that, I'm there with you. JJ has said that she actually starts to learn how to use her power during Kylo Ren's interrogation where she taps into his mind, but I don't think that's properly developed. If it were, I don't think you'd have the same level of speculation that she had to have either been from some special bloodline or that she had been previously trained.

I would argue, however, that Rey was more developed in TLJ from a Force power perspective. Luke did teach her how to connect with her power more deeply and acknowledges that she truly has rare strength. There's also an entire lightsaber practice sequence. Again, using your ESB argument, I can draw just as much from that as I can Yoda's two training sequences. Not to mention Rey still looks sloppy in her fight with Snoke's guards, and doesn't dispatch them so easily.


Firstly I’d point out that Kylo Ren wasn’t “mortally wounded” as he’s still alive in TLJ... so clearly the injury couldn’t have been that bad right... given that he’s in action literally 10 minutes later (based on the TFA/TLJ timeline)? I’d agree that the film establishes Rey can melee, but the issue is that the previous 6 films have show us that to wield a sabre takes considerable skill and finesse, and not just an aptitude for twating someone with a stick. Same applies with Rey’s use of the force.

Now I personally don’t have an issue with not slavishly adhering to what’s been established in previous films/lore. Whatever moves the narrative/story on. It’s the fact that there’s little to no effort taken to write/logically convey a contrary take on established behaviour/methods/character, which works only to undermine the progression of new stories/characters, that really make the sequels a poor outing (IMO).

Re. Luke’s training versus Rey’s. Again, I wholeheartedly disagree. TESB purposely conveys that Luke has undergone intensive training, but is not proficient enough to confront Vader. And guess what? Luke is defeated. TLJ, conversely, shows the audience that Rey gets minimum training time, yet she still has the ability to successfully go head to head with (we assume) elite praetorian guards and Kylo (again). This only works to undermine the character of Luke (not that important if one isn’t invested in his character) and ultimately cheapens Rey’s journey/achievements. She has no obstacles to work to overcome. She doesn’t know defeat etc. etc. which all leads, IMO, to an incredible lack of drama and peril in the sequels. I think trying to argue that the the sequels, thus far, show that Rey has abilities relative to her training, a la Luke in the OT, is a stretch... especially given than this element is the bane of many fans.


It's not even just Rey. Why is nobody (that I've seen/heard at least) ever mentioning the slave boy at the end of The Last Jedi too? He makes the broom fly into his hand like it's nothing! So apparently nobody needs training or even really knowledge of the Force now. I think Disney is turning Force users into basically mutants like X-Men. They just have abilities that they're born with or at least naturally develop and can use whenever they want. Like Rey's out-of-nowhere Force persuasion in The Force Awakens.


Post Posted: February 27th 2018 5:08 pm
 

Join: December 24th 2015 5:26 am
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Yes I agree. I don’t have issue with, non-trained, Force sensitives being shown to have subtle powers per se... it’s just that they (the writers) seem to be using it as a plot device to avoid what’s already been established in the films... simply to artificially extend the premise. That this then works to undermine the original characters is, I suppose, only an issue if one has been following those original characters. For me the issue is two fold... 1) It lessens the original characters, and their personal journeys. 2) It turns new characters into caricatures and undermines the overall drama/sense of scale.


Post Posted: February 27th 2018 5:09 pm
 
OBGYN
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Because the Force awakened. Maybe it awakened in a new way we haven't seen yet.


Post Posted: February 27th 2018 6:05 pm
 

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Bandersnatch wrote:
Because the Force awakened. Maybe it awakened in a new way we haven't seen yet.


Disney are going to use that now. "Actually the Force has basically been asleep during all the movies prior to The Force Awakens. Now it's awake this is what anybody who is Force sensitive can REALLY do!"


Post Posted: February 28th 2018 6:51 am
 
OBGYN
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It doesn't mean that the Force has been asleep all this time. It just means this is something we haven't seen yet. And it's not Disney making these decisions, it's the filmmakers under Kathleen Kennedy doing it. Disney just owns the property. They don't dictate what color to paint it.


Post Posted: April 11th 2018 6:01 am
 
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Doctor When wrote:
It’s not that the sequels are “undercooked”, it’s that they are raw. For example, it takes Luke 2 films to confront Vader, and even then he is soundly defeated. That Luke goes from swatting Wampa’s to duelling Vader in the space of a ‘few days’ is just the economy of filmmaking. The film (TESB) is at pains to show Luke going through intensive training with Yoda. That development is a significant and specific element of the plot and film. Rey on the other hand, goes head to head, and soundly defeats, Kylo Ren without any training... indeed, she’s never even used a lightsabre (she doesn’t even have any real lessons from Luke in TLJ). So it’s really not comparable... the sequels aren’t being economic, they simple avoid building the narrative. The net result is, IMO, that characters and situations are undermined by poor writing. They are not believable and the drama, which these films rely on, lacks credibility. I’d agree that TFA does a good job of establishing the main characters, but they are just not developed... either within TFA or TLJ.


Corellianrogue wrote:
It's pretty obvious to the 4 year old I was when The Empire Strikes Back was released that Luke had being doing lightsaber training since A New Hope. Or do you think he just stored it away on the Millennium Falcon and never touched it again during the entire time between movies? And not only was Luke freezing cold, so therefore not exactly 100%, when he used his lightsaber against the Wampa but we only see him use it for a couple of seconds which isn't long enough to judge his proficiency at that point in the movie. Plus Yoda even said that Luke wasn't ready to face Vader yet and Luke lost the duel anyway so you have no point. Meanwhile Rey is magic Mary Sue who can do anything because feminism. 4 year old me could have written a better story for the (fake) sequel trilogy.

Agreed.

And I always figured Luke trained with Yoda for months. Months.

It would have taken the Falcon a very long time to get to Bespin without lightspeed.

Like in Star Trek, they have sublight/impulse engines in Star Wars. That's what they relied on to get there. In Star Trek, such engines run on ionized gas also known as plasma. Star Wars is probably similar sci-fi science.

There are not getting there anytime soon.

The Leia/Han relationship deepened on the way there. This explains the L word being used by Leia.

All this time, Luke is with Yoda. We don't know the exact time, but Luke is on Dagobah for a lot longer than a few days.

It's months. Months for the Falcon to get to Bespin. Months of time for Luke to be with Yoda.

I don't give a shit what some timeline may say.


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