millenniumfalcon.com

...It better be entertainment. If Lucas the liberal looney spouts anymore rubbish about Iraq I swear I'm gonna lay the smackdown on JarJar.

I think the sad truth is that the right-wing are looking for anything they can pin "persecution" on so the average citizen might possibly say, "look at Hollywood and the Liberals, there they go bashing the Republicans/George Bush/Jesus/Neo-Cons/Whatver again."

Yes, I think it's very obvious that Anakin's line is a direct reference to George "dumbass" Bush and his policy of absolutisms. The reason it bothers them so much is because it stings A LOT. When Bush said that the entire world groaned, as did most people in America with 1/4 of a brain.

Ridiculous... They (Medved et al) seem a little oversensitive about it, don't they? Almost like it hits too close to home.

Personally, I'm on the "it's just fucking ENTERTAINMENT!" side... but I do find it amusing, and a little bit suspicious, that pro-Bush conservatives are bristling so much at the perceived political undertones.

Even scarier is the "Petition to get Ashcroft to charge Michael Moore with treason." I'm not even going to get started on exactly how wrong that is, and why it's hypocritical to every core of these people's being.

Whether you think Moore did a good thing or a bad thing. He still can speak his mind. Treason is Karl Rove leaking the name of an undercover agent to the press, exposing her and potentially getting her killed. True fact. But no charges were ever filed......

Why are some people dragging this movie through the political mud? Why don't you just leave your damn politics at the door and enjoy the movie for what it is?

I'm not sure about you guys but I believe that "A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away..." means that this film is just fun and that you should enjoy it. Dumbing it down by comparing it to our current political situation goes directly against what these movies are trying to do: Entertain us!

Anyway, no matter what your political ideals are I hope that you enjoy ROTS tonight. I know that I will!

I just noticed at that PABAAH website Harpua posted a link to, the newest registered member at their forums is "DarthVader." Hmmmm....someone from this forum trolling?

if you read the first few posts on that thread on freerepublic, most of them are deriding those conservatives who would read into the movie those political subtexts.

EXACTLY. People on the extreme left, and the extreme right read politics into every aspect of life, and should not be shown as the example of the sum total of the political ideologies they represent. Its just a movie. relax and enjoy it for what it is, don't read anything into it.

Ummm...I don't know about a "sum total", but yeah when half of the prequels (for better or worse) are in fact ABOUT politics, and Lucas and others in the film have made some very specific comments on their relevance to our times just this past week, in that light "it's just a movie...don't read anything into it" seems like a bury-my-head-in-the-sand-can't-deal-with-reality reaction.


I thought only the extremists had knee-jerk reactions, but on this board I'm starting to see that the middle of the roaders have their own blinders as well.

"it's just a movie...don't read anything into it"...I hope you never teach Film Analysis & Criticism.

What a wonderful thread for a proud "Old European" member of the german Social Democratic Party.


What puzzles me most in threads like these is the "politics are dirty and should be left untouched" attitude. Although politics and policy is not always Kindergarten play, I don't understand by people behave like ignorant sheep that want to be dominated, governed and lobotomized by mass media. Civic and political majority can only be achieved by political participation and political discussion, period.

Disenchantment with politics - a flaw more and more common among people(s). Even the older, more experienced ones.

True, I'm a rightwing asshole but that was sarcasm and not meant to be taken seriously. What do I care about Lucas' political views? As long as he keeps them out of his movies I don't care what he says when a French journo asks him if the Emperor is really George Bush. I liked this one, though:

http://chrenkoff.blogspot.com/2005/05/o ... lucas.html

I fit the conservative/Jesus/fundamentalist label, but these comments don't really strike me the wrong way. I think it would be obvious to most people that as we allow the government to control more and more of our lives, then we lose more of the liberty we have. Too many people here in the US see things only from our point of view. We think "well, we have more money and freedom than the rest of the world, so we must be right!"

I don't think less of Lucas for saying this. It's his opinion. At least he isn't fabricating events to fit into a "documentary" like Michael Moore tends to do. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I don't have to agree with them. Is it any surprise that an artist from California turns out to be liberal? Not exactly an "I am your father" type of revelation.

Chill out people. Just enjoy the movie for what it is, which is not a political statement.

ITS A FUCKING MOVIE.

The plot of this movie was pretty much in stone LONG BEFORE GEORGE BUSH EVER TOOK OFFICE.

What I first read, was that some stupid libs with a percecution complex said that the movie was getting digs in on Bush, and then some dumb cons believed them.

The movie has NOTHING DIRECTLY to do with current politics. What it does do is what George has always done, and is built around UNIVERSAL themes, NOT one party or the other.

Seriously, people reading this crap into Star Wars is like saying that the Dr. Suess book "Green Eggs and Ham" is a terrorist book encouraging people to poison their enemies' food supply... both are equally stupid and idiotic ideas.

Here is a thought - if you see the movie, and you think that in ANY way it has to SPECIFICALLY do with current politics, then you need to either remove yourself from the breeding population, or take the harder route, and actually have an open mind for a larger world view, and realize the world doesn't center around your political beliefs....

If the prequels aren't a political statement, about how men can sell their souls in their greedy thirst for power (and revenge), how time and again throughout history fearful people give up their freedoms (to thunderous applause) while tyranny is "made legal", and democracies morph into dictatorships, legislative and judicial branches get flushed down the toilet, and about a good man can become a robotic cog in the "system", a system of falsehoods and fear and control that eventually only exists to perpetuate itself and stay in control through whatever violent means necessary...

...well then I don't know what the prequels are about other than jokes about stepping in shit and cool sequences in which stuff blows up and people get dismembered.

Or just maybe it works on more than one level?

EDIT: Ok, "directly" is tricky, but the parallels are there. And it should scare the shit out of any thinking person if there are any parallels between Bush and Hitler (more of an obvious Palpatine inspiration.)

I wouldn't be so quick to trash right-wingers for their annoyance (for the lack of a better term) with what they may perceive to be in ROTS...

I doubt they would even make a fuss if "news" stories like this one didn't appear:

"Wars" raises questions on U.S. Policy

I mean, come on, really.. Star Wars raising questions on US policy? What's next, Dude, Where's My Car raising questions about US automotives?

Exactly Phod, exactly.

Few things piss me off more than some twerp in the media taking a completely innocent thing, and twisting it for their own purposes.

I swear, these people are worse than politicians, and THAT is saying something...

Like this guy, right?

http://chrenkoff.blogspot.com/2005/05/o ... lucas.html

Christ, if the media and the various political dipshit groups can get this riled up over the ridiculously simplistic comments made about the war in this movie, God only knows how they'd handle a REAL debate on the topic.

I don't think they're diverting attention from anything. I think they're too fucking stupid to carry on a substantive discussion.

I think the neocons hollywood-liberal-media-bias radar has been set to stupid. If they pick a fight with Star Wars, they'll simply lose. Waging a war on a movie of this magnitude would be a publicity nightmare. Imagine the headline "James Dobson Condemns Darth Vader as Anti-Christian." They'd be a laughingstock.

Edit: I've been reading the talkbacks of some of the right-wing webpages that are complaining about ROTS. When they aren't condemning Lucas for his perceived symbolism, they're fighting over which one of them loves freedom more. "I support the troops MORE THAN YOU DO!" This is the world we live in.

Well, the plotting of ATOC knocked me for six after the hell of September 11 and the subsequent direction of the war in Iraq.

But remember, they were alllllll (fairly) well thought out before the planes crashed into the towers and long before Bush and Blair started the war.

Weimar to Nazi Germany or the mutation of the Roman Republic into the Roman Empire seem far more plausible models - but they ALL remain cautionary examples to those of us who live in representative democracies today.

The really fucking pathetic thing here is that no one except for right-wingers apparently are allowed to have an opinion anymore. If someone from "liberal Hollywood" makes a statement, they are suddenly anti-christian, anti-American, anti-Democracy.

What these dumbfucks fail to realize is, is that healthy criticism of the world we live and the government that we're supposed to take part of AND be critical of is the only way to make sure that things like the Empire actually never come to be.

Because George Lucas says that he feels there are many parallels between the story he's told in the Prequels, and our current political situation, does that make him a traitor? In my heart of hearts, if I believe that our president is wrong, and is potentially one of the most dangerous people on the planet, does that make me a traitor?

No, that's my opinion. I think Bush Jr. has made some of the biggest blunders in the history of the office of the Presidency, and I sincerely feel that history will judge me correct. But, why do the right-wing hate mongerers feel that their opinion is more valid than someone else who is speaking out.

Well, to answer my own question, it's because they just goose-step in line behind the lies they are fed and never question. They blankly stare at the TV and never think that they need to investigate the news more for themselves. The truth is, the truth would scare the shit out of most Neo-Con, fundie, right-wing assholes, so they believe whatever Bush and Rove and Cheney and Rice are going to feed them to make them feel safe at night.

And with that, I'm reminded of a song by a punk band called Screeching Weasel that sums up my thoughts on this perfectly:

Because their bullshit doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Their response to any question as to their motivations consists of immediate flat denials and attacks on the questioner.

People talk a lot about Red States vs. Blue States, but I don't think most people realize how tricky the situation really is. The Democratic minority in the Senate actually represents a greater number of Americans than the Republican majority does. That's not some wild, weird accusation; it's simple math. What that means is that the Senate is controlled by a group representing a minority. Think about that for a second, and you begin to realize why people like Bill Frist are trying to end filibusters and take away what little power the Democrats have. It also explains why certain moderate Republican senators are not exactly thrilled with the behavior of their extremist party brethren.

I second that.

you're a douchebag considering GL has recently made comments about it making commentary on recent political events. I gues he should remove himself from the gene pool as well. Art imitates life bro deal with it

Didn't Jesus say that?

This is just stupid.

One of the best movies in a long time comes out and now it is a political debate ... what a friggin joke.

I went to the movie to watch Anakin and Palpatine come to power, not to debate the politics of the movie.

I hope you sit on a milk dud

I find it funny that Josh knows what Star Wars is supposed to be. As if he is the keeper of what Star Wars is and isn't.

Guys, just so you know where I'm coming from, I'm a Republican and a right-of-center conservative. I listen to Limbaugh, I voted for Bush twice and glad I did.

At the same time, I don't feel that much concern here, mostly because, as a Star Wars fan from the early days, I pretty much expected what had to happen here: in order for there to be an Empire, the Republic had to die. We knew that Palpatine was going to do what he did, and how he was going to do it. It was in the prologue to the novel of A New Hope, it was in numerous RPG books - though in abbreviated form, to be sure. I knew what was coming for twenty-two years; it was written in stone long before George W. Bush had political aspirations. It's no biggie.

That said, I think the little in-jokes you can read in both Labyrinth of Evil and the Revenge of the Sith novelization are kind of loaded. I mean, the Department of Homeworld Security? An Empire ruled by the majority? Come on. They're sublte, unsubtle, or just plain cute references to current events.

I would be worried, if, in LOE, Palpatine didn't view the Constitution as a living document - his justification to change it to suit his Imperial desires. But he did say that to Bail Organa in that book. The reason this disarms my feelings is that this refers to a liberal issue. Conservatives are often strict-constructionists when it comes to the Constitution, and aren't necessarily up to viewing it as a living document, a thing that changes with the times.

What does this mean? As far as I can see, I think the folks at Lucasfilm are just making jokes, trying to be cute. They're not trying to offend me, and I'm not offended. They're not making this a strictly conservative or strictly liberal issue, they're using the language of our times to make the events of the Galaxy Far, Far Away more easily understood by us, the planet-bound simpletons.

As far as Lucas' personal politics are concerned, I'm not sure I can say with any certainty what they are. He never really bothered to advertise them, and his words at Cannes could easily be something the foreign press chose to focus on in lieu of other subjects Lucas brought up. I have been reasonaly sure he was a left-of-center kind of guy, someone who didn't care for Vietnam (he's spoken about this a few times), and someone who definitely didnt care for Richard Nixon (he's spoken about this, too). But he's not Michael Moore, for crying out loud!

So I'm going to invoke the "Can't We All Just Get Along" argument and relax. All's I know is that in an hour and a half, I'm off the the theater! Politics end when the Fox logo pops up!

Good night, and my best to you all.

Erik Pflueger

GWB wasn't the first person in history to say "If you're not with me, you're my enemy"

The only reason the Republicans are whining about this is because they have ran out of legitimate things to argue about...so they're just acting like children, moreso then ever.

Besides, last time I checked the thesaurus, Republican was a synonym for "Religious Fanatic" anywho...so is anything they say even remotely credible? ?...lmao

food for thought...

I suppose one could see parallels of both democrat and republican tactics in the Empire.

Why the democrats are like the Empire and the GOP like the Jedi:

+ The primary goal of Sidious was "divide and conquer". The smashed the unity of the republic and used it to ascend to power and unite all behind them. Bush and the republicans were ALREADY in power and already had unity behind them prior to the Iraq War. Tactically, the controversies that sprung from Iraq served to divide everyone and weaken Bush, not strengthen him. Who did this serve? The democrats. In fact, the same tactic of "divide and conquer" used by Sidious was used by the democrats and they tried to shatter the unity to win in 2004.

+ The first step towards the dark side is hate. What united the democrats in 2004? Were they voting with positive thoughts in mind? Were they voting FOR Kerry? No. Heck, Kerry in his campaign said he supported the Iraq invasion. The Kerry vote was nonsensical in that regard - they were voting for someone who also wanted war but couldn't see that through their hate. They were voting AGAINST Bush. In other words, what drove the democrats was HATE.

+ The mind trick used on Anakin in their talks prior to Anakin informing the Jedi council that Palpatine was a sith lord. The Jedi believed that the Sith operated in absolutes. That was not what we were SHOWN by the Sith master. When we were SHOWN how Sidious operated, he turned Anakin using a HEAVY dose of moral relativsm. He spoke of how the Sith were misunderstood, how the Sith and Jedi had good and bad aspects. He didn't talk like George W. Bush. He talked like a liberal. While Anakin did use absolutes, he was still a fresh sith apprentice with hardly any training.

Having just seen the movie and having listened for these lines and so forth (among other things), I see nothing wrong. I vote Republican more often than note - nah nah nah boo boo, my guy's President! - but really, the parallels are to many leaders throughout history, not (just) GWBush.

The only hamfisted political story that really tries to take Bush & Co. to task is "Labyrinth of Evil," and it jerks you out of the story by with things like "the Reflex Act."

But really, this is a non-story. If it had pro-Bush speech in it, some far left folk would be up in arms, but the main Dems wouldn't care. The majority of people will go to this movie to be entertained, not to gain fodder for future political debates.

Agreed.



Lucas is using the language of the Galaxy Far, Far Aways to make the events of our times more easily understood by us, the politically uninformed simpletons.




So, Lucas being a total "lefty" is a liberal european media spin? Give me a break! Lucas pointed out the potential political implications of Episode III numerous times, not just during his staying in Europe.

Again, George Lucas is as liberal as it gets. I and I really like my Star Wars charged with political symbolism. It's what makes the PT so strong.

If Lucas was a conservative, and ROTS was perceived as supporting Bush, we all know Josh would be kissing Lucas' ass.

No, but he did make it clear he was Democrat in a recent interview.

And Ian McDiarmid recently highlighted the parallel between the character he portrays and George W Bush. Maybe he's 'fucking retarded' too, but he is one retard whose take on the story influences the movie.

I don't see how it is anything less than clear where Lucas stands, or that he has taken little shots at conservative causes in his last two movies. Who makes up the villianous Separatists? Not the 'Galactic Council of Ecologists.' Not the 'National Health Care Guild.' It's the 'Corporate Alliance, 'Banking Clan,' and 'Trade Federation.' When Padme questions the direction Palpatine has taken the Republic, Anakin says she's beginning to sound like a Separatist. The dissent=treason meme is not lost on a Democrat.

And why is the Separatist general's ship named after the capitalist force that guides the free market (The Invisible Hand)? Why has the Trade Federation's home planet got the same name as America's most prominent libertarian thinktank (The Cato Institute).

Nobody is suggesting that the prequels, or the saga, is some huge allegory painting the man George W Bush as being the supreme evil force in the galaxy. But George Lucas doesn't so much give a character a moustache without some thought behind it, and none of this stuff is required to have been thought up 10-20 years ago. When one's head is safely removed from one's ass, the little gags, some of which are mentioned above, are pretty clear. Don't take these things so seriously, but don't pretend they're not there.I don't think it should take away from the movie though. Whether Democrats or neo-con, humanist or Xian Taliban, Star Wars can be enjoyed by everyone!

Wow...this is being taken a lot more seriously than it really deserves to be, but that's the modern press for you. Whatever it takes to get both sides in a hissy fit, that is what people will tune into/read, and that is what will attract advertising dollars.

I am about as conservative as they come, and I enjoyed the movie immensely. I think there is a lot of hysteria out there among both cons and libs. Both think that the other is out to destroy them.

If Lucas put his opinion into his film, big deal. Artists have been doing this since cave dwellers scribbled on the walls. Dante's Divine Comedy is nothing if not a scathing political commentary. Art, especially when it reflects the opinions of the artist, is a form of free expression and should be celebrated. If we "fucking stupid" neo-cons without "1/4 of a brain" were really as bad as some of the previous posters have made us out to be, Lucas would not be able to express his opinions through art. Michael Moore would not be allowed to rant his endless diatribe. Hell, some of the posters in this forum would be feeling heat from the government to cease and desist, lest you find yourself in a gulag. This is not Cuba.

Now on the other hand, if liberals wish to add ROTS to their stockpile of rhetoric ("Star Wars proves what will happen if we vote a Republican into office: all our freedoms will vanish into thin air"), then that's just silly. Lucas is (was) writing a fictional story. Force powers to the contrary, he is no psychic...I don't even know what credentials he has, if any, as a historian.

I can appreciate Lucas' opinion and I respect and will defend his right to express it however he chooses. For all those people saying they wish politics would just be left out of these entertainment vehicles, I respectfully disagree. Art becomes substantive when it challenges us to think in real world terms. If you want irrelevant, mind-numbing drivel spoon-fed to you so that you never have to use your brain, try Nickelodeon, MTV, or reality television.

For my part, as much as I am sure some liberals would like to make things personal and brand me as closed-minded, racist, jingoist, sexist, yadda, yadda, yadda...I like having sane public discourse. I think Lucas expresses his opinion on the matter in a tasteful way, without being too overbearing so as to distract from the overall quality of the entertainment value. If he was hoping to convert me into his way of thinking, he failed miserably, but I do no believe that was his purpose. I disagree with his sentiments, but that will not stop me from pumping his wallet full of my cash several more times this summer.

As a fellow conservative, I must agree. Forget all the hype and enjoy the movie for what it is...entertaining!!! As an educated individual I noticed many of the little political jabs/statements/similarites, but I was too busy watching an amazing lightsaber duel over lava to really get worked up about it. This movie rocked, plain and simple!

Conservative here.

See that there are little pings at Bush and the crew in the movie.

Know George is a liberal.

Doesn't bother me at all.

I agree Tony. Anyone who thinks this movie is anti-Bush should be euthanized immediately.

Has anyone mentioned that coward Grievous being like Osama?

Actually, McDiarmid downplayed the Bush comparison, and said that Sideous resembled Slobodan Milosevic.

If anything, the Sith sound like bloody muslims. Seriously, twice this week have I heard muslims say they will bring 'peace' to the galaxy...pardon, world if only those pesky non-muslims would lay down and play dead or at least submit to their muslim overlords. They weren't ashamed to say some people would have to be killed and oppressed first. And they were not even terrorists, one was a 'spiritual' leader and the other a professor. What I find kind of funny is that Lucas makes Obi-Wan tell Anakin that only the Sith deal in absolutes when all this time the major relativist has been Palpatine and the Jedi were the ones spouting dogmatic drivel. Obi-Wan's shouting how he's on the side of democracy just like Bush has been doing. I think we see what we want to see. You'd have to be a flaming commie to think the US resembles anything like a totalitarian state. You want to see people controlled by their governments check out socialist Europe. Check out the Middle-East. People putting swastika's on top of the American flag have simply no idea what they're talking about, it's the most disgusting display of ignorance I've ever seen. If you live in America, God bless you. Everybody wants to live in America. If it wasn't for the freedom people enjoy in the States you would never have been able to see Star Wars or any of those cool movies. How many cool movies come out of Europe every year? German bukkake doesn't count.

The argument is that Palpatine used the fear of the Seperatists to spark a war, then used that war to horde more power for himself. The parallel is the notion that Bush has used fear of terrorists to spark a war, then used that war to horde more power for himself.

If that was indeed Bush's plan, then everyone needs to take a deep breath and consider the outcome. The war in Iraq has cost Bush political capital. Opposition to him is stronger than it would have been had he just left Iraq alone. Whether one thinks the war was right or wrong, if his "evil plot" was to accumulate more power, it has clearly failed. If he can't get CAFTA, his nominations, or Social Security reform through the legislative process, what are the realistic chances he can pronounce himself Supreme Right-Wing Christian Lord of the Universe and be anything but a laughing stock?

Breathe easy...he will not become Emperor. In two years, he will be a lame duck, and his power will have eroded even further. In four years, he will just be another former President, and we'll all be prostrating ourselves before Grand Empress Hillary.

I don't know, I thought putting the "with us or against us" line in a movie in 2005 was enough to make a point, so I was extra shocked when Palpatine nearly chokes on a pretzel in the opera scene.

Well, you're in the arsehole of the world. I hear Mikey Moore's butt is quite comfortable, plenty of room.

Hadn't thought about it, but that's one way of looking at it.

I really don't think GL was trying to make specific cookie cutter parallels, however. Trying to do that only creates more obstacles in the story-telling. I think he had a general point of view to get across, and as I have said before, that is fine by me.

That being said, I would not mind seeing UBL getting his insides fried by laser blasts.

"Uncivilized weapon," ObiWan said (or something to that effect), tossing the blaster down in disdain. Awesome touch!

Only a Sith deals in fat butt jokes...