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Post Posted: May 28th 2005 5:52 pm
 
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http://www.starwars.com/databank/updates/news20050527.html

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An arboreal world teeming with robust, aggressive lifeforms, Kashyyyk's wilderness has barely been tamed by the native Wookiees. The fur-covered giants exist peacefully within their niche in the hostile ecosystem, living in balance with the nature that surrounds them. The planet is a gateway to several major astrogational routes, making it of prime strategic importance to whoever controls the system.

During the Clone Wars, the Separatists attacked the world, hoping to overwhelm the Wookiees with their droid forces. The Republic bolstered the native armies with their clone troopers, led by one of their most powerful Jedi warriors, Yoda.

Kashyyyk
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Wookiee Ornithopter
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Wookiee Flying Cataraman
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Can-Cell
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AT-AP All Terrain Attack Pod
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Commander Gree
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Post Posted: May 28th 2005 10:25 pm
 
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*Wookiee

:roll:


Post Posted: May 29th 2005 7:09 am
 

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The Wookiees look great but that Commander Gree shot only draws attention to what people have been saying about the CG clones. It's weird but I actually thought the clones in Ep2 got away with being CG better although perhaps it's that the environments look better this time around. I don't know...

Somehow I totally missed Luminara in the film.


Post Posted: May 29th 2005 11:57 pm
 
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In that picture of Luminara Unduli (and for that matter, the character in 'ROTS') is portrayed by Fay David (Ep.3 Art Dept. Supervisor) not Mary Oyaya as in 'AOTC', this is stated in J.W Rinzler's 'Making of' book

Unduli's screentime is practically NIL so it's of little matter I guess, another victim of Order 66


Post Posted: May 30th 2005 12:27 am
 

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Dogg Thang wrote:
The Wookiees look great but that Commander Gree shot only draws attention to what people have been saying about the CG clones.


What have people been saying about the CG clones

I think he looked great, he and Commander Cody were the more BELIEVEABLE (and cooler looking) of the CG-clones the other dude with the trippy helmet was the less-beliveable clone on Utapau

they only looked fake with the merging of the CG-Body and the "real" Tem-head thats when things went wrong!


Post Posted: May 30th 2005 12:39 am
 
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After seeing how that turned out, I just don't understand why they didn't just put Tem in a suit and do multiple takes. It's not a tough effect to pull off, or an expensive one.

That was a bad decision.


Post Posted: May 30th 2005 2:38 am
 
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I found the BARC (Camoflauged Biker Scout) troops to be far too Video-Gamish for my liking especially when mixed in with real & other elements

Then I wondered if they were done that way as a potential hook for the 'Gamers' out there - I can see GL (The marketing savy flannelled one) planning for that to happen - A great Tie-in to that part of his Empire

I've heard that the Troops that follow (march) behind Anakin to the Jedi temple were actual 501st members (If true - nice touch!)

Too bad he didn't have some armor physically made instead of the CGI - but I'm nitpicking now


Post Posted: May 30th 2005 5:49 am
 

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Then I wondered if they were done that way as a potential hook for the 'Gamers' out there

So making real suits would have turned gamers off?
Bitch, please. :whatevaho:


Post Posted: May 30th 2005 9:13 am
 
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Wouldn't have turned them off necessarily but there are differences in reality, CG Imaging and the tech level of what a game processor can deliver - Maybe I'm stretching here, but he is a sharp guy, If he is catering to that demographic - why not give 'em eye candy in the form that they are use to

The problem isn't a monitary thing (Although in the midst of reading the 'Making of' book) Rinzler does refer to the Budget (Their sticking to)alot, He also has the talent in the animators/artists Etc. - so it can't be that?

It does seem that he's left an awful lot to fit into this last picture (As far as what he's directing) but that doesn't/shouldn't have any bearing on the particular rendering of certain characters


Post Posted: May 30th 2005 10:19 am
 

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so it can't be that?

Why can´t it be that?

In the OT, we never had big land battles with thousands (heck, even hundreds) of Stormtroopers, and not a large number of digital surroundings either. In the PT we have a lot of both.

Now, you can either take the time to multiply guys in suits, and painstakingly get them to fit more in with the digital background, or make both digital and save money. Lucas is about making the best possible FX, but he does think about the cost as well (especially since they use his money). I´ve seen alot of things that don´t look real in these (and other movies), but if they fit the setting and look good, that´s often enough for me.


Post Posted: May 30th 2005 10:26 am
 

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Well it's wrong to say he's delivering the 'best possible effects' if he is using CG to save money.


Post Posted: May 30th 2005 10:27 am
 
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Even Lucas has to stick with a budget. Even he has to eat, sleep and take a shit once in awhile.

Occasionally, he has to make choices. Like using CGI to duplicate the clone troopers instead of doing multiple takes using T.Morrison. There are things he has to consider, like time, budget, deadlines, Morrison's schedule, etc.

And he is trying to create the best thing he can even if it means having to save money and time here and there in order to create the best effects he can.


Post Posted: May 30th 2005 10:46 am
 
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that still doesn't excuse the obvious lack in quality in those shot

they could've tried to keep a consistency with the quality of the shots

at some points it seemed as though the animation on the suits weren't even tracked correctly to the actors head, making it seem like his head was about to 'float' off the suit


Post Posted: May 30th 2005 10:51 am
 

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The film made its money back in several days - there was no doubt ever that it would do this. Money should never have been an excuse for less than flawless effects.


Post Posted: May 30th 2005 11:00 am
 
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Money isn't an excuse, but scheduling is.

Keep in mind this film has 2100 effects shots. Now, understand that not all animators and digital compositors are of the same skill level. Add that each number of shots have dealines because this movie has a set release date. Now lets do some rationalization.

When GL views a shot to be ok'd, he only has so much time to fine tune it. He can tweak the performance a bit, maybe re-align certain things, but can't scrap it and go back to point A. It doesn't work like that. There is a noticeable difference in quality in different shots simply because some animators have more talent, are older and have more experience than others.

If you remember, Yoda could either look perfect in AOTC or very CG. This is because you have different people lending their interpretation and acting. For Ep. III George took the best guys from Episode II and put them on Yoda to make him look almost seamless and you have a great jump of consistency between AOTC and ROTS.

This film doesn't have an infinite amount of time to be polished, if it did you would have much closer to perfect effects.


Post Posted: May 30th 2005 11:06 am
 

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Flawless effects?

Now this argument is just getting silly. Lucas has always been a tight-ass with his money. That's, in part, how he got so much. That's how he built ILM, his own little industry that's allowed him to be independent from Hollywood. He's the same now as he's always been about money.

Moreso that the money is the time. Sure every shot could be perfect, but even with a three year schedule some shit just has to get rushed. That's why it's usually the smaller things the fans gripe about (Anakin riding on a potato-thing, Clones heads, etc.). There just isn't enough time.

And flawless is impossible, everything can always be better, every shot could look nicer. Plus, Lucas has always had a "it's good enough attitude."

EDIT: What CoGro said.


Post Posted: May 30th 2005 11:27 am
 
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And... I've seen ROTS 4 times, the most recent viewing being the digital version, and I have yet to catch the "bad" trooper shots being referred to here.


Post Posted: May 30th 2005 12:46 pm
 

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Well, if that's the case Bandersnatch, then maybe it's not all that big a deal for many people. I did have one guy in work today who had seen it at the weekend and complained that it looked like a CG tech demo, especially the Boga. Now that was just one guy and he's not a fan (strangly enough he didn't have that much of a problem with the 'Noooo' but there you go). I don't know, maybe I'm making a mountain out of a molehill as far as the effects are concerned but, in my opinion, if I'm looking at people who I am painfully aware are CG, it takes me out of the movie. Makes it harder to just enjoy the story. But I understand that's just me and maybe most people don't give a crap.

As for this -

Quote:
Keep in mind this film has 2100 effects shots.


Yes, but only because he insists on using CG in every shot whether it is required or not. Building clonetrooper armour would have cut down on effects shots. Building more sets would cut down on the effects shots. Using more actual actors would have cut down on the effects shots.

And jpeters430, you're absolutely right about Lucas achieving things on limited budgets in the past. That did lead to immense innovation in effects - Star Wars could well be one of the most important films in terms of effects. I have to say I don't believe that ILM are innovators any more. I don't think they lead the industry the way they once did. And maybe you're right - maybe I'm wrong to think that he should have thrown more money at them.


Post Posted: May 30th 2005 12:52 pm
 
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Dogg Thang wrote:
...looked like a CG tech demo, especially the Boga...


Wow. Now I knew the Boga was CGI, and even looked at it very critically the last 2 times I saw it, and was amazed at how great it looked.

I think some people, fans or not, go into movies these days wanting to hate CGI and will claim something looks "fake" just because they know (or think) it's CGI.

Could just be a matter of taste, too.

:)


Post Posted: May 30th 2005 1:11 pm
 
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That’s something that I really liked about this movie… Not once did I say to myself, “that’s a great effects shot,” since it was all so well done that it never occurred to me that this was anything but real. I was so taken up with the great looking world I was in; I guess I didn’t even notice the clunky looking clone stuff. I’ve noticed them since if I take the time to think about it, if I break myself out of the spell the movie puts on me. But altogether it looks good, natural.


Post Posted: May 30th 2005 2:05 pm
 

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in my opinion, if I'm looking at people who I am painfully aware are CG, it takes me out of the movie.

I see good and bad shots, and know the clones are not real. I still don´t care. There were mattepainting troopers in ROTJ. Did those longshots take anyone out of the movie? Did Lucas blow his wad on mattepaintings?

I keep finding this double-standard when it come to fx: matte paintings and stop-motion is "cute", CGI is "awful" and "lazy" and "you only have to push a button to get teh kewl alien" etc. And this mentality makes me not care when people start to go off on CGI.

Quote:
Building clonetrooper armour would have cut down on effects shots. Building more sets would cut down on the effects shots. Using more actual actors would have cut down on the effects shots.

In other words, substitute the CG budget for armour-, set- and actor-budgets. Right. Still his money, still his decisions. That´s what I´ve been saying all along. Had it been a studio-funded effort I would agree, but, as long as these things come out of the director´s own pockets (Lucas is just an example here), I have to disagree.

Quote:
I have to say I don't believe that ILM are innovators any more. I don't think they lead the industry the way they once did. And maybe you're right - maybe I'm wrong to think that he should have thrown more money at them.

I think he throws enough money at them, that´s not the problem for me anymore, I´ve come to expect adequate and more than adequate fx from Lucasfilm, It´s the actors and the acting I´m mostly concerned about these days, not whether clone nr 2361 looks good in a close-up or not.


Post Posted: May 30th 2005 2:21 pm
 

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There were mattepainting troopers in ROTJ. Did those longshots take anyone out of the movie? Did Lucas blow his wad on mattepaintings?


That's a fair point except for one thing - they were always background material. They were always away from the focal points and never drawing your eye to them. If he used matte paintings for the main characters and I could spot it, I'd have the same criticism.

Quote:
keep finding this double-standard when it come to fx: matte paintings and stop-motion is "cute", CGI is "awful" and "lazy" and "you only have to push a button to get teh kewl alien" etc. And this mentality makes me not care when people start to go off on CGI.


This is simply wrong. I'm an animation director and have been in the business for ten years. I work with CG. I know what's involved. If that way of thinking helps you invalidate my opinion for yourself then that's fine, but it's far from the truth.

Quote:
Still his money, still his decisions.


Now here, we agree. It is totally his decision. Doesn't mean it's always the right decision but, yes you're right, it is his decision.

Quote:
It´s the actors and the acting I´m mostly concerned about these days


So don't the digital actors count? You can ignore them?


Post Posted: May 31st 2005 12:18 am
 
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I agree with raptor10001 - Fully-Aware that I'm Nit-picking on one scene ('tis a sicness) IMO the sequence of the Attack on Kashyyyk - the rendering (And general movements) of the BARQ troops (Camoflauged Biker Scouts) specifically, is done poorly. For the level I expect the animators working for Lucas to be at, I'm disappointed with the consistency of quality in that CGI sequence

Cody and the rest of the Clones for the most part are fine

CoGro - A shame that a greater amount of time was not alotted for, to polish the CGI across the board (Which is why I think it must have been something else?)

Like Dogg Thang stated - 'Looking at people (characters) who I am painfully aware are CG, it takes me out of the movie', It's like a little snap that breaks your focus on the film, I do give a crap

Let me nit-pick somemore - those BARQ's are main elements in that sequence and they just don't cut it - not for ILM - the Wookies were multiplied actors, lots of other CGI elements that look fine

There was plenty of CGI that I found visually stunning - I didn't mind the Boga at all, going into my first viewing I did have reservations about this jedi lizard-thing that Obi-Wan alledgedly was going to ride - But not once
have I even (Now in my 4th viewing - 1x Digital + the Bootleg workprint 1x) thought twice about the quality of that character

I'm impressed with Gen. Grievous (Although his voice sounded better LIVE at C3 - Matt Wood's program!)


Post Posted: June 5th 2005 11:17 am
 
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well excuuuuuse me but i think you are all completely full of it. that scene with gree and yoda is the most realistic and believable CG scene i have ever seen in a movie, take another look for yourselves:

Image

(gree bts_bg.jpg)


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