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Post Posted: June 13th 2005 4:22 pm
 
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CoGro wrote:
But now ask yourself....how does Anakin do it?

It makes no sense at all. If you throw in 'compassion is the key' all of a sudden you've connected the dots and you end up with a much deeper plot point. As it exists, you have a plot hole. I see what you're getting at, I mean, I don't care how Qui-Gon figured it out, let that be a big mystery, but if you're going to mention it at all do it properly and make it work.


True. The best excuse for why Anakin knows that I can come up w/ is that he saw Obi-Wan do it. What I always guessed was the reason Yoda Obi and Vader could retain their spirits was because they were "at one w/ the force" when they died. Or something. Obi and Vader die sacrificing themselves and Yoda dies willingly. Qui did not. So, now that I know Qui has the same power, I'm not sure what my theory is. But like I said, it really doesn't bother me all that much.


Post Posted: June 13th 2005 4:30 pm
 

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Lightivity wrote:
Please rationalize the logic that Palpatine can feel dreams through the force but absolutely cannot plant them.


I will attempt to do so in terms that even you can understand.

Open a book. You can read it. You can read it as quickly as you like, in whatever order you like, multiple hundreds of times if you wish. But one thing you cannot do is cause new words to appear in that book.

Because Palpatine can sense Anakin's feelings does not even remotely suggest that he can plant new feelings in his mind.

Besides, you seem to be forgetting that Padme did die in childbirth. Anakin's dream was a true premonition, not something that Palpatine planted there.

Now, if you would like to rationalize your theory that describes events that happened nowhere else in the entire saga -- events that we have no real reason to believe happened in this instance either, for that matter -- and can do so with "logic" that doesn't come out of an X-Men comic, feel free.


Post Posted: June 13th 2005 4:35 pm
 
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Wrath Mania wrote:
And you're telling me there's no evidence in these movies that force users cant feel character's emotions?


Specific dreams of people dying are quite different than vague emotional readings of anger or joy, don't you think?

I just have the perception that "Hey Anakin-boy! I know your WIFE IS FUCKING DYING and I REALLY saw this coming as a PERFECT WAY to sway you" is different from "I seeeence muuuuch anger in youuuu". Right?

The tone of the conceptual approach – and the audivisual style – is different. I don't see it as strange to interpret this into a clue that Palpatine actually planted the dream there, in the same way as he perhaps ordered the midichlorians to create Anakin.

That way, Palpatines character remains the evil defined. His clout of fate is even more huge and powerful, and not just a bystander waiting for a dream to synch with his goals.


Post Posted: June 13th 2005 4:41 pm
 
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Ayatollah Krispies wrote:
I will attempt to do so in terms that even you can understand.

Open a book. You can read it. You can read it as quickly as you like, in whatever order you like, multiple hundreds of times if you wish. But one thing you cannot do is cause new words to appear in that book.

Because Palpatine can sense Anakin's feelings does not even remotely suggest that he can plant new feelings in his mind.


Was that a rationalization? You just said all that before in other words. I expected you to develop it. I guess I was wrong.


Post Posted: June 13th 2005 4:43 pm
 
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Lightivity wrote:
Wrath Mania wrote:
And you're telling me there's no evidence in these movies that force users cant feel character's emotions?


Specific dreams of people dying are quite different than vague emotional readings of anger or joy, don't you think?

I just have the perception that "Hey Anakin-boy! I know your WIFE IS FUCKING DYING and I REALLY saw this coming as a PERFECT WAY to sway you" is different from "I seeeence muuuuch anger in youuuu". Right?

The tone of the conceptual approach – and the audivisual style – is different. I don't see it as strange to interpret this into a clue that Palpatine actually planted the dream there, in the same way as he perhaps ordered the midichlorians to create Anakin.

That way, Palpatines character remains the evil defined. His clout of fate is even more huge and powerful, and not just a bystander waiting for a dream to synch with his goals.


Krispies brought forth an even better example; Vader read Luke's mind about Leia. So yeah, it's been done before.

You're making Palpatine omnipotent. He's powerful, sure, and obviously knows how to manipulate, but he's the mastermind because he takes the situations around him for his own gain.

There's actually an off hand, subtle hint in the film that's been noted by Lucas and McCallum that Palpatine might have had a hand in Anakin's conception. There's absolutely nothing to suggest he planted this dream in Anakin's mind.


Post Posted: June 13th 2005 4:48 pm
 
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Quote:
Now, if you would like to rationalize your theory that describes events that happened nowhere else in the entire saga -- events that we have no real reason to believe happened in this instance either, for that matter -- and can do so with "logic" that doesn't come out of an X-Men comic, feel free.


Ayatollah, I know that when you see ROTS again, you'll have my theory burning in the back of your mind, slapping your face, wishing you'd never bothered reading my X-men posts.


Post Posted: June 13th 2005 4:53 pm
 

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Lightivity wrote:
Ayatollah, I know that when you see ROTS again, you'll have my theory burning in the back of your mind, slapping your face, wishing you'd never bothered reading my X-men posts.


Says the guy who had to respond to my post twice.


Post Posted: June 13th 2005 4:58 pm
 
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Thats because I love you.


Post Posted: June 13th 2005 5:11 pm
 
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Lightivity wrote:
Ascovel wrote:
How you go about creating a dream? Is it like creating movies, would Palpatine use some hologram footage of Padme and Obi-Wan or make them fully CGI instead? Are dreams something more then images or they can't be translated to sensory images at all? Reading thoughts, dreams, feelings is something everyone can imagine doing without going into what they are in essence, but I don't see, how planting a self-made dream in somone can be explained. I don't think assuming stuff like that can be described as logical.


I appreciate your sincere explanation, but this is a highly individual perspective. I can't see justifying reading someones dreams as more logical than planting any. It's all fantasy, and how planting a dream is practically accomplished shouldn't be a factor here, since creating lightsabers, hovering, force-convincing and jedi-ghosts aren't either.

And also, I dont see Palpatine as a passive mindreader, I view him as extremely aggressive, persuasive and manipulating. Thats why I – logically from that perspective – picture him planting the dream just as he gently and mockingly plants the other lies in Anakins mind: the Jedi counsils lack of faith in him, the attack on the Republic etc.


He didn't plant the dream dude, nor did he plant the dream of schmi dying. It's part of anakins power as many jedi could do when they weren't somewhat cut off from the force. It was always taught o them however that trying to stop dreams or visions from coming true could actually bring them to pass, which is what happened. Anakin only saw the outcome in his dream, not the cause or he would've known that he didn't need to go crazy finding the power to save her, he just needed to be a good person and he wouldn't cause her death himself


Post Posted: June 13th 2005 5:21 pm
 

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Y'know, what's funny is that I really thought all the dumbshit theories would finally stop after ROTS was released. You just shouldn't underestimate the "imagination" of Star Wars fans, I guess.


Post Posted: June 13th 2005 10:49 pm
 

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Seriously. Palpatine never "planted" dreams. Anakin can see things before they happen. He doesn't need Palpy's help. Padme died. Anakin dreamt about it. Palpy had nothing to do with it.


Post Posted: June 14th 2005 12:15 am
 
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:mrgreen:

*sensing your dreams*

You all, deep down, wanna be hugged. I can arrange it.

*planting dreams of hugs*


Post Posted: June 14th 2005 1:16 am
 

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*afraid to lose hugs*


Post Posted: June 14th 2005 2:32 am
 
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Dogg Thang wrote:
*afraid to lose hugs*


Post Posted: June 14th 2005 10:15 am
 
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I am really surpised at how many people interpreted the theater scene as palps insinuating that his master created anakin, and I am even more surpised that anyone involved with the film has actually acknowledged this. The first time I watched it I took absolutely nothing else from that scene other than Palpatine playing on Anakins fear of losing Padme and trying to seduce him with the thought of the power to save the ones he loved. I really feel that this completely is a bunch of bullshit, if the sith created anakin then why did they just let him remain on Tattooine for the jedi to discover? This is just the absolute stupidest thing that has ever been spawned from any of the star wars stories even in the EU. The fact that the force created anakin as a way to balance itself out was a really great idea and playing with that idea and turning it into some super sith creation is absolutely absurd. It is like having all of the stupid shit that TF.N sheep dream up and cream over become reality and that is a very scarry thing. What I think the comment was meant to mean was this is something GL didn't answer in the movie and it is a somewhat interesting idea that is left up to moviegoers to decide, however, if it were ever to be addressed by GL it would turn out to be false.


Post Posted: June 14th 2005 1:17 pm
 
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I feel the same way about this. Connecting the Sith to Anakin's conception, doesn't make a virgin birth more plausible unless you are convinced the Force can't do anything on its own, but that's clearly against, what the Jedi think how it works throughout the Saga.


Post Posted: June 14th 2005 4:43 pm
 
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Demodex wrote:
Seriously. Palpatine never "planted" dreams. Anakin can see things before they happen. He doesn't need Palpy's help. Padme died. Anakin dreamt about it. Palpy had nothing to do with it.


To say palpy had nothing to do with it goes a little far. You can argue between whether Palpatine had anything to do with the dreams or that he was just manipulating the fear he felt from Anakin. I think there are rational reasons one might beleive either one of these interpretations of ROTS. What you can't argue is that Palpatine somehow manipulated everyone into the situation that is present at the start of ROTS. He's the one who put Padme and Anakin back together in AOTC, no doubt as part of his plot to seduce Anakin to the dark side. The assassination attempts against Padme possibly were even a ruse, just to get a good reason to put them together (that is Palpatine didn't want Padme dead, just a demonstration of a threat on her life).

BTW, your name makes me want to pee.

stan Marsh wrote:
[ It was always taught o them however that trying to stop dreams or visions from coming true could actually bring them to pass, which is what happened. Anakin only saw the outcome in his dream, not the cause or he would've known that he didn't need to go crazy finding the power to save her, he just needed to be a good person and he wouldn't cause her death himself


This is a classical mythological theme, the self-fulfilling prophecy. I think this is what happened to Oedipus. The prophecy revealed to him is that he'll marry his mother and kill his father so he flees his homeland to avoid that from happening. Only he doesn't know that he's adopted and he flees to the homeland of his actual parents, meets his mom and falls in love with her and kills his father to get her. Then he finds out about his heritage.

Lucas loves all that classical mythology stuff. The OT is a classic "Hero falls from grace only to be redeemed at end" story for Luke. Anakin' story runs the entire 6 films with his fall in the 3d and redemption in the 6th.


Post Posted: June 14th 2005 6:14 pm
 
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There's a bunch of mythological elements in Sith.

Making a pact with the devil to save your love from hell, but if you look back into hell she is lost forever.


Post Posted: June 14th 2005 7:02 pm
 

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strikeforce wrote:
To say palpy had nothing to do with it goes a little far.

Bull shit. Palpy had nothing to do with Anakin dreaming about Padme. Yes, he's ultimately responsible for the dozens of events that had to take place for Padme and Anakin to meet and fall in love, but PALPY DID NOT "PLANT" ANAKIN'S DREAMS.


And why the hell does my name make you want to pee?


Post Posted: June 14th 2005 11:01 pm
 
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Getting back to the deleted scenes, I got my new issue of Cinefex magazine today and it mentions that ILM did complete the shots for the Dagobah scene. "We had done a shot of Yoda's little escape pod landing there," said John Knoll. "Then the door opens, and there is Yoda looking out on the landscape. We built a swampy tabletop miniature for the immediate foreground, and we had little creatures scuttling on the ground. Unforutantly, George had to cut the scene for time."


Post Posted: June 15th 2005 5:52 pm
 
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I really don't think the they needed to cut that scene for time, I mean how long could it have been. all they needed was yoda to step out of his pod and look around, but then again it is kind of cool to see dagobah for the first time in TESB. Either way is fine, but I don't see how it would've affected time that much, the movie wasn't all that long


Post Posted: June 15th 2005 6:11 pm
 
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Shit, I forgot about that mag coming out...

how's the issue? I wanna go pick it up :heavymetal:


Post Posted: June 15th 2005 6:18 pm
 
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It's good stuff. It's not quite as extensive as TPM and AOTC issues since it is sharing pages with Sin City, Constantine and Hitchhiker's Guide.


Post Posted: June 15th 2005 7:51 pm
 

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Fuck Yoda landing on Dagobah. We've all seen ESB. We all know where he ends up. I'm glad it was dropped.


Post Posted: June 16th 2005 1:01 am
 
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I don't need to see Yoda landing on Dagobah. I just want him to be sent from space to the planet. Of course that won't happen. The completed shot of Yoda looking on Dagobah seems likely to be shown on the DVD as a deleted scene, or be reincorperated.


Post Posted: June 16th 2005 7:46 am
 
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pika122689 wrote:
I don't need to see Yoda landing on Dagobah. I just want him to be sent from space to the planet.


What for?

Yoda should be absent from the ending of ROTS as he is absent in ANH. Besides, in ESB Dagobah is suposed to be a mysterious, dangerous, unpredictable enviroment. Seeing Yoda in ROTS going there willingly, without any apparent reason to choose it over other places in the galaxy, would take all the magic, Dagobah would become just another exotic planet.


Post Posted: June 16th 2005 1:08 pm
 
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Demodex wrote:
And why the hell does my name make you want to pee?


Sorry, I should have said it makes my dog's hair fall out.

Demadex is a diuretic. Demodex is the bug that causes mange.


Post Posted: June 17th 2005 4:22 pm
 

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Quote:
The first time I watched it I took absolutely nothing else from that scene other than Palpatine playing on Anakins fear of losing Padme and trying to seduce him with the thought of the power to save the ones he loved.


If that was the case, what did you take from the part when Palpatine says that Plaguis(or however the hell you spell it) 'was so powerful' he could 'create life.'

Doesn't that fall a little more under the file "Anakin's Origins" than "Save Padme"?

If that scene wasn't also made to hint at Anakin's possible origins, then the line about "create life" could have easily been removed. But the fact of the matter is, that line is still in the movie.


Post Posted: June 17th 2005 7:24 pm
 
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i'm quite drunk, but I can assure you than Imperial Force is right on the money. Actually, he's got got chewing gum on his shoes which has the cash in a very firm grip.


Post Posted: June 18th 2005 2:06 am
 
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Ascovel wrote:
pika122689 wrote:
I don't need to see Yoda landing on Dagobah. I just want him to be sent from space to the planet.


What for?

Yoda should be absent from the ending of ROTS as he is absent in ANH. Besides, in ESB Dagobah is suposed to be a mysterious, dangerous, unpredictable enviroment. Seeing Yoda in ROTS going there willingly, without any apparent reason to choose it over other places in the galaxy, would take all the magic, Dagobah would become just another exotic planet.


Because it is confusing. We got an end for every character that was on the Tantive IV in the end of the movie but Yoda. He just "mysteriously" disappeared. Reason why I want to see him being sent "somewhere" but not being revealed, like where he is looking at his surroundings, which already reveals an important area in ESB.


Post Posted: June 18th 2005 2:29 am
 
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No, it's perfect as it is now. Yoda lays out the whole plan for the future with Bail and Obi-Wan and he even says he's going to "dissapear". It works.


Post Posted: June 18th 2005 6:18 am
 

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I have to agree. Seeing where Yoda went would sort of spoil the mystery of the planet when Luke first sees it. As a view, I think Lucas wanted us to feel the same uneasiness and mystery about the planet as Luke does when he crash lands. By introducing it, even briefly, in RotS, we will be going back there again, not visiting it for the first time.

Anyway, any confusion is at most fleeting. Put two and two together and it becomes obvious that Yoda fled to this planet at the end of RotS. Sure, Lucas can be a retard sometimes, but in this case he made the right move.


Post Posted: June 18th 2005 2:52 pm
 

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if we saw yoda flying to dagobah in rots, his absence in anh would be totally strange. it would be a non-sense. as it is actually, there is some mystery about this character. and lucas was right to do this.


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Imperial Force wrote:
Quote:
The first time I watched it I took absolutely nothing else from that scene other than Palpatine playing on Anakins fear of losing Padme and trying to seduce him with the thought of the power to save the ones he loved.


If that was the case, what did you take from the part when Palpatine says that Plaguis(or however the hell you spell it) 'was so powerful' he could 'create life.'

Doesn't that fall a little more under the file "Anakin's Origins" than "Save Padme"?

If that scene wasn't also made to hint at Anakin's possible origins, then the line about "create life" could have easily been removed. But the fact of the matter is, that line is still in the movie.


Palpatine lies to anakin yo get him to go to the dark side, i seem to recall right after anakin becomes his apprentice he says something like "Finding the secret to Eternal Life is impossible, but if anyone could do it, it would be us." or something like that.


Post Posted: June 18th 2005 4:16 pm
 

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No he says something like "It was discovered only by one, but together I am sure we can discover its secret!" or something like that.

But the fact that Palpatine was lying to him doesn't mean that the line about creating life had to be in the movie.


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Imperial Force wrote:
No he says something like "It was discovered only by one, but together I am sure we can discover its secret!" or something like that.

But the fact that Palpatine was lying to him doesn't mean that the line about creating life had to be in the movie.


i agree, but palpatine had to say something along those lines, or else anakin would have never stopped mace from killing palpatine, he's says "I need him alive" and only wants to save padme as evidenced by "I will do whatever you ask, just help me save padme's life. I can't live without her."

also, the line is "to cheat death is power only one has acheived but if we work together, i know we can discover the secret"


Post Posted: June 20th 2005 9:02 pm
 
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A new Set Diary at the OS talks about Shaak Ti's two deleted death scenes.

The execution of Shaak Ti by Grievous might be included on the DVD as Matt Wood hinted about a Grievous related deleted scene at Celebration III.


Post Posted: June 21st 2005 4:34 am
 
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I would like to see more of Anakin & R2 "piloting" the Invisible Hand down onto Coruscant. I didn't like when those little fire ships said "we'll take you in." They should have showed a couple extra frames of struggling to land the wreck on Coruscant. Maybe I just need to watch it again.


Post Posted: June 21st 2005 9:31 am
 
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Thundercracker wrote:
A new Set Diary at the OS talks about Shaak Ti's two deleted death scenes.

The execution of Shaak Ti by Grievous might be included on the DVD as Matt Wood hinted about a Grievous related deleted scene at Celebration III.


I didn't understand if they said that anakin and obi witness GG killing skaak ti? If so then they would have to edit the scene on the bridge when they first meet GG and have that exchange, "I thought you would be Taller" blah blah and all that. Personally I would rather have the shaak ti scene than the bridge scene, it would be a very cool entrance for GG. As it stands now he doesn't come across as a menacing character just a coward that always runs away, I think it would be cool to see him as the jedi killer he is


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"Two Jedi Knight lead a desperate mission to rescue the captive Chancellor"

So where does this third Jedi no one but sheep give a shit about fit in to this mission?

Far better as is.


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stan Marsh wrote:
Personally I would rather have the shaak ti scene than the bridge scene, it would be a very cool entrance for GG. As it stands now he doesn't come across as a menacing character just a coward that always runs away, I think it would be cool to see him as the jedi killer he is


I don't think he ever killed a jedi, not in a fair fight anyway.


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Ascovel wrote:
stan Marsh wrote:
Personally I would rather have the shaak ti scene than the bridge scene, it would be a very cool entrance for GG. As it stands now he doesn't come across as a menacing character just a coward that always runs away, I think it would be cool to see him as the jedi killer he is


I don't think he ever killed a jedi, not in a fair fight anyway.

Watch the Clone Wars cartoon!

Dooku tells him not to fight fair. "Use the unorthodox moves...you must have fear, doubt on your side...if not, it is better to run away than face a fully trained jedi"

This is how Obi-Wan so handily kicked his tail on Utapau. GG forgot his training and Obi was not scared at all!


Post Posted: June 21st 2005 4:57 pm
 
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EU does not count

...thank God (and the Maker)


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Quote:
I didn't understand if they said that anakin and obi witness GG killing skaak ti? If so then they would have to edit the scene on the bridge when they first meet GG and have that exchange, "I thought you would be Taller" blah blah and all that.


Yes they did witness her death. I believe both the Shaak Ti scene and the bridge scene were always part of the script but most of the "first encounter" type dialogue would have been spoken during the Shaak Ti scene. But when that scene was cut they just combined some of the dialogue from the Shaak Ti scene with the bridge scene making it the first meeting between GG and the Jedi.

I doubt the scene will be put back into the movie, it would be a good scene to include in the deleted scene section especially if it's combined with the leaking generator room since that happens right after Shaak Ti's death. The Jedi cut a hole through the floor and drop into the fuel.


Post Posted: June 21st 2005 6:51 pm
 
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I'm happy those scenes were cut. The command ship sequence is long and a bit overdone as it is.


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Agreed. Watching through again, the Invisible Hand scenes (Elevator/running around) are too long. R2 sending the elevator up and down and hiding in the docking bay isn't particularly well done. I'd sacrifice all that for more Dooku duel footage. In comparison, that scene got screwed over.


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Ascovel wrote:
stan Marsh wrote:
Personally I would rather have the shaak ti scene than the bridge scene, it would be a very cool entrance for GG. As it stands now he doesn't come across as a menacing character just a coward that always runs away, I think it would be cool to see him as the jedi killer he is


I don't think he ever killed a jedi, not in a fair fight anyway.


Yeah, that would have been a cool entrance for the EU/Clone Wars version of GG.

But since the movie basically turns him into a mustache-twirling, cowardly villain with a smoker's cough--just not sure that the cold-blooded murder of Shaak Ti would have worked with the Snidley Whiplash caricature Lucas turned GG into.

Statler & Waldorf say, "Boooo!"


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Hi, only my second post, but I just wanted to say... I agree about the command ship sequence length. It's almost a whole twenty minutes (including the space battle) of action that has not a lot to do with the main plot (other than setting up Grievous and rescuing Palpatine). If Lucas had cut to the chase with the main points at this part of the film, he could have spent more time on the storytelling in the middle of the film, which would appease all those people that complained that Anakin seemed to go over to the Dark Side too easily. Personally, I'd have liked to have seen at least one Rebellion scene, that was somthing I was looking forward to, even if it was just a hint of what was to come. I know there was supposed to be a scene in Bail's office to do with the Rebellion, if that scene had stayed in I'm sure Bail's character would have had more weight to it; as it is he just sort of pops up in the main plot and randomly starts helping Jedi (I know he's in AOTC briefly too, but unless you're reallypaying attention you don't really start to notice him as a main character until he turns up at the temple in ROTS and goes on a Jedi-saving spree).

Anyway, rant over. Liking the boards so far.


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The beginning was perfect. I thought it was the only part of the entire movie that had the right length. If the other scenes were lengthened, without cutting back on the beginning, this movie would have been closer to perfection.


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Join: June 15th 2005 3:46 am
Posts: 18
You really felt that way? I always got the feeling that the film was too long. I wanted a more concise Star Wars film that fit with the classic two-hour running time. To be honest, and Lucas has said this himself (don't know where but I remember reading it at some point), he could have got way more exposition out of the way in the first two films. He apparantly only got 30% of the prequel storytelling done in TPM, 30% in AOTC, then had to cram the remaining 40% into ROTS (not that you can really divide this stuff up in percentages, but I do remember seeing that somewhere). He obviously didn't plan the whole thing very well from the outset and was propbably winging most of it. Particularly, I was annoyed that the whole mystery of who erased the data from the archives in episode ii was never fully explained in the films, even though Lucas said on the DVD that it would get explained in episode iii; that whole side-plot just seemed to get lost in the effort to make way for Anakin's turn to the dark side.

Ah well, all of this doesn't really matter. I'm happy with III it is a good film, could have been better but I still enjoyed it. Still, shame about those Rebellion scenes.


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