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Post Posted: June 22nd 2005 10:56 am
 
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King of Comedy wrote:
To be honest, and Lucas has said this himself (don't know where but I remember reading it at some point), he could have got way more exposition out of the way in the first two films.


He said this many times, but he was talking about OT.

King of Comedy wrote:
He obviously didn't plan the whole thing very well from the outset and was propbably winging most of it.


He did plan ahead even less details for episodes V and VI when he was making IV and rarely anyone complains about it. Before ROTJ many people thought it was a story about something totaly different then Lucas really intended. I don't think a perfectly tight, concise story for the entire saga was ever his goal.


Post Posted: June 22nd 2005 12:47 pm
 

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King of Comedy wrote:
Particularly, I was annoyed that the whole mystery of who erased the data from the archives in episode ii was never fully explained in the films, even though Lucas said on the DVD that it would get explained in episode iii; that whole side-plot just seemed to get lost in the effort to make way for Anakin's turn to the dark side.

Does anyone not believe that Dooku did that before he left the Jedi Order?


Post Posted: June 22nd 2005 12:59 pm
 
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Jango Fett reveals it straight out in Ep. II to Obi-Wan:

"I was contacted by a Darth Tyrannus from the moon of Bogda".


Post Posted: June 22nd 2005 1:11 pm
 
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I was dissapointed by how Lucas claimed it would be explained in ROTS because it made it seem like the mystery of AOTC was something bigger than what is implied...but after all it's not. It didn't need to be explained in ROTS, Lucas should just never have said that on the AOTC commentary.


Post Posted: June 22nd 2005 1:26 pm
 

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About Shaak Ti's death, I don't think its the GG scene you're thinking of. In the novelization, I think Anakin kills Shaak Ti while she is meditating, and the book follows the script.


Post Posted: June 22nd 2005 4:20 pm
 

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Imperial Force wrote:
About Shaak Ti's death, I don't think its the GG scene you're thinking of. In the novelization, I think Anakin kills Shaak Ti while she is meditating, and the book follows the script.


I believe in the Making of Book it started off as a Greivous scene, then was switched to be included as part of the Jedi slaughter, and a new pickup scene was added (I think) later in the process--this time with Anakin being the one to kill Shaak Ti.

Then, in the end, the whole scene was completely scrapped from the film. I may be off slightly, since I read that so long ago, but I think that was the general progression.


Post Posted: June 22nd 2005 4:32 pm
 
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ETAndElliot4Ever wrote:
I was dissapointed by how Lucas claimed it would be explained in ROTS because it made it seem like the mystery of AOTC was something bigger than what is implied...but after all it's not. It didn't need to be explained in ROTS, Lucas should just never have said that on the AOTC commentary.


I felt exactly the same way about it. It seemed like Lucas is keeping part of the story away from the audience. Later I found an earlier draft of the AOTC script and began searching for some additional clues.

Sifo-Dyas was Sido-Dyas here and Obi didn't know anyone by that name. Also, Jango called his boss "DARTH Tyrannus" and Yoda identified this imedietly as a Sith name. So I think Lucas never intended the resolution of those mystery parts of AOTC as something grand and a major plot point in ROTS, rather they were mostly the consequence of him trying to turn what was lame and obvious into interesting and mysterious. I guess in the end he figured he can leave it only vaguely resolved with even stronger effect.


Post Posted: June 22nd 2005 5:42 pm
 
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Ah well... still sounds like he hadn't thought it through properly. Why go to the effort of setting up all these unanswered questions if he never had any actual answers to give out.

Sure it's implied that Dooku erased the files before he left the order and that he had already been in contact with Sidious and knew of his plan to dismantle the senate. But its never really tied up neatly. Felt like Lucas had completely forgotten than whole thread of the plot by the time he got to writing ROTS.

Still... minor quibble.


Post Posted: June 24th 2005 6:45 pm
 

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I think GL tried to imply that Dooku ordered the Clone Army using Sifo-Dias's name. Which doesn't make much sense. In fact, that whole scene between Obi-Wan and the Prime Minister is crap anyway. Justlisten to the dialogue....


Post Posted: June 24th 2005 7:01 pm
 
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Imperial Force wrote:
About Shaak Ti's death, I don't think its the GG scene you're thinking of. In the novelization, I think Anakin kills Shaak Ti while she is meditating, and the book follows the script.


no in a recent hyperspace there are filmed scenes of anakin and obi watching GG stab her through the back on the ship. In the book I don't think it mentions her again after she tries to stop anakin from leaving the temple to go to the battle with sidious.


Post Posted: June 24th 2005 7:10 pm
 
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Oh, it wasn't exactly a well crafted sub-mystery, I agree. But how doesn't it make sense? Seems pretty easy to decipher to me.


Post Posted: June 24th 2005 7:47 pm
 
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What really doesn't make sense is how Sifo-Dyas was a real Jedi, not Dooku using the name. And never again is Sifo-Dyas brought up or exactly why he ordered the clones. It was explained in Labyrinth of Evil, and I'm assuming that it's true (?), but in the film it just goes unexplained. It can all be assumed of course it was Dooku doing Sidious' bidding and playing both sides and that the real Sifo-Dyas was never involved in any of it, but then why bring up that Sifo-Dyas ordered the clones and Dooku killed him in Labyrinth of Evil? Maybe I'm thinking too much of this.


Post Posted: June 24th 2005 7:59 pm
 
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I don't think you're wrong nor do I think you're thinking too far into it.

It was a mistake to mention the name 'Sifo-Dyas' at all in the movie if that part of the mystery was not to be developed in the next movie. If all that needed to be implied was that Dooku ordered the clones, you could have had the same effect with something like:

"Please tell the Jedi Council that their order will be met on time?"

Then the mystery would be placed on Dooku's intensions....a 'political idealist' or in fact a Sith Apprentice playing both sides - this was the mystery revealed at the end of the film when Dooku is named Tyranus (though I think that whole scene could have been played much better to heighten the impact that Dooku was IN FACT a Sith lord - moreover, the Dooku duel in AOTC should have seen Dooku weild a Jedi saber instead of a Sith one to keep the mystery alive until the end, and only in ROTS would we see Dooku's red SITH blade because now we know he's a Sith lord)


Of course, some of the later dialogue would have to be altered in AOTC, with Jango and what not, but everything spoken with the Jedi could be:

"They say the Jedi Council placed an order for a clone army almost 10 years ago."

This could have gotten the audience's mind working throughout the film. Dooku was always played as a not so bad, bad guy. Firstly, I would've kept in the lost 20 scene to develop his character early in the film. We have a fairly positive view of him from the Jedi and then we hear Dooku offer Obi-wan a chance to kill Sidious...we think, hey, maybe he IS a good guy and the Jedi are just clueless. Then bam: Dooku's a Sith, and he's playing the same game as Sidious.


Post Posted: June 24th 2005 8:18 pm
 
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Yeah, it should have just been simply the "Jedi Council" instead of some random Jedi name, I agree there.

It was almost like Lucas wanted you to conclude Sidious was involved because the name Sifo-Dyas sounds just like Sidious. But that's kind of a poor way of linking the two from a storytelling stance, and you can easily come to the conclusion the Sith were behind it w/o naming a specific Jedi.

But just looking at AOTC as it is now, there's enough to deduce the Sith were behind it without needing Sifo-Dyas mentioned again in Episdoe III.


Post Posted: June 28th 2005 4:06 pm
 
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King of Comedy wrote:
Ah well, all of this doesn't really matter. I'm happy with III it is a good film, could have been better but I still enjoyed it. Still, shame about those Rebellion scenes.


Hell no its not. Those scenes would have been a gross detraction. The story is Anakin's story. Lucas, Burtt [and Barton] finally got the editing around this time. It's about finding your story and ruthlessly ripping out anything not related to it, including the boring ass Rebellion scenes.

AOTC could've used some more character driven editing. The story was suppossed to be Anakin and Padme's [intercut with Obi-Wan], yet it ends up being quite haphazard due to cutting out a shitload of Padme scenes. I think that's why the romance comes out a little flat. The Padme family dinner scenes, people can call them cheesy, but think of all the things they establish that are not at all established, and need to be established before they kiss:

-Padme wants Anakin.
-Padme wants a family.
-Padme is torn between her political duty and wanting to make babies with Anakin.

Think of how much more power the rest of the movie would have if these things are well established. The great thing about ROTS is that its edited in a way in which you can really feel the internal conflicts of Obi, Anakin and Padme. It's extremely powerful and creates the most emotional Star Wars without question. Only Empire shares such a moving story. AOTC not only had the potential to rise to that level, but all the material needed to reach that level was filmed. It just wasn't put together.


Post Posted: June 29th 2005 4:53 am
 
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MannyOrtez wrote:
AOTC could've used some more character driven editing. The story was suppossed to be Anakin and Padme's [intercut with Obi-Wan], yet it ends up being quite haphazard due to cutting out a shitload of Padme scenes. I think that's why the romance comes out a little flat. The Padme family dinner scenes, people can call them cheesy, but think of all the things they establish that are not at all established, and need to be established before they kiss:

-Padme wants Anakin.
-Padme wants a family.
-Padme is torn between her political duty and wanting to make babies with Anakin.

Think of how much more power the rest of the movie would have if these things are well established.


Not really. And there's nothing of that in the dinner scene. It's in the deleted scene, where they're going to the palace. After a disscusion about how time-consuming and tiring politics are, Padme says straight in Anakin's face that anyone would do, she just wants babies, only her senatorial terms kept her form doing that already. I don't think it's that great at all. No other scenes include Padme ever talking about wanting a family or any other intimate feelings and desires, so it sounds very strange, unfitting for Padme's character, not to mention it's very untactful to express it in such a manner in a conversation with Anakin. I don't think the babies motivation was even that important and I'm glad they omitted it from the movie, especially since in ROTS, when dying, Padme seems mostly concerned about Anakin and not what happens to her children.

I know already that you're obsessed with the deleted Anakin/Padme scenes from AOTC, but I think you should think over, why do you like them so much, because they don't fit with the rest of the story as well as you say.


Post Posted: June 30th 2005 2:54 pm
 

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There was only one thing that I feel is missing in Episode III and it is not Shaak Ti or Qui Gon. It is this and let me know if I am off base here:

In ROTJ, when Luke walks off the At-At on Endor and he talks to Vader (which I feel is my favorite sceen in the entire trilogoy - don't know why but I just love it) Luke says "Come with me."
Vader then replies " Obi Wan once thought as you do - You don't know the power of the dark side, I must obey my master."

While I was watching III - which I though was great- all I wanted, at some point was for Obi Wan to say something to the effects of "Come with me and we can undo what has been done, we can defeat the Emperor" or just "Come with me" just something to refrence that line. I know it is small and trite but damn it I wanted it to connect!
I know, damn sheep - but this is really the only thing I felt should have been put in unless Vader was talking about something else.
I am open to thoughts.


Post Posted: June 30th 2005 3:50 pm
 

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I pretty much agree with your post. That scene has always been my favorite in the OT as well, and I would've liked a scene in ROTS that made Vader's line more meaningful. Still, I can live with the way things are now, but it would've been nice.


Post Posted: June 30th 2005 10:20 pm
 

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MannyOrtez wrote:
AOTC could've used some more character driven editing. The story was suppossed to be Anakin and Padme's [intercut with Obi-Wan], yet it ends up being quite haphazard due to cutting out a shitload of Padme scenes. I think that's why the romance comes out a little flat.


The prequel trilogy is plot-driven while the OT is character-driven. AOTC is great in that it delivers on Plot (this happens which leads to this which pushes this guy to do that, which sets this other thing into motion), but sometimes it has weak character moments... which is symptomatic of it's storytelling structure.

Personally, I love the PT warts and all and the only changes I'd make are to ROTS.


Post Posted: July 1st 2005 8:52 am
 
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coolscottyb wrote:
I know, damn sheep - but this is really the only thing I felt should have been put in unless Vader was talking about something else.
I am open to thoughts.



ANAKIN: You turned her against me.

OBI-WAN: You have done that yourself.

ANAKIN: You will not take her from me.

ANAKIN throws off his cloak.

OBI-WAN: Your anger and your lust for power have already done that.

OBI-WAN flings off his cloak.

OBI-WAN: (continuing) You have allowed this Dark Lord to twist your mind until now . . . until now you have become the very thing you swore to destroy.

They circle each other until OBI-WAN is near PADME. He places his hand on her.

ANAKIN: Don't lecture me, Obi-Wan. I see through the lies of the Jedi. I do not fear the dark side as you do. I have brought peace, justice, freedom, and security to my new Empire.

OBI-WAN: Your new Empire?

ANAKIN: Don't make me kill you.

OBI-WAN: Anakin, my allegiance is to the Republic ... to democracy.

ANAKIN: If you're not with me, you're my enemy.

OBI-WAN: Only a Sith Lord deals in absolutes. I will do what I must.

(...)

It could have been played out a bit more in the direction you mentioned, but all in all I'm fine with the way it was handled.


Post Posted: July 1st 2005 10:24 am
 
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Ascovel wrote:

Not really. And there's nothing of that in the dinner scene. It's in the deleted scene, where they're going to the palace. After a disscusion about how time-consuming and tiring politics are, Padme says straight in Anakin's face that anyone would do, she just wants babies, only her senatorial terms kept her form doing that already. I don't think it's that great at all. No other scenes include Padme ever talking about wanting a family or any other intimate feelings and desires, so it sounds very strange, unfitting for Padme's character, not to mention it's very untactful to express it in such a manner in a conversation with Anakin. I don't think the babies motivation was even that important and I'm glad they omitted it from the movie, especially since in ROTS, when dying, Padme seems mostly concerned about Anakin and not what happens to her children.

I know already that you're obsessed with the deleted Anakin/Padme scenes from AOTC, but I think you should think over, why do you like them so much, because they don't fit with the rest of the story as well as you say.


I include the scene you speak of into my scenes that I think would add to the film. The romance for me has always felt very flat from Padme's POV. We can feel the conflict in Anakin, but with Padme, we don't get any orientation as to how she is feeling. When they first kiss, it's kind of a "huh...?" moment for me, as she (or at the very least Natalie) has shown no signs of chemistry towards Anakin. Likewise, when she drops the I love you at the end, it also seems like a right turn. In Empire, we know Leia wants Han, and maybe it comes in better acting. But the family scenes, the whole "he's not my boyfriend" stuff, make it very clear that Padme is attracted to Anakin. Something Portman isn't able to do very well until Episode III.

I spose the romance is adequate without those scenes, I think they would have added a great emotional impact. Mainly, with AOTC I feel that Lucas somewhat abandoned his original concept to have the story driven by the romance. By making the decision to move Anakin and Padme away from the plot and off to Naboo, he has no choice but to make the story about their relationship, but it seems in the editing room that he lost confidence in the story. To me, there simply aren't enough beats in their relationship to really drive the story. The film is still good, and it all works and the cross cutting btwn Obi's story and Anakin/Padme's story is all great, I just think it could've been taken to another level.


Post Posted: July 15th 2005 8:47 pm
 
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Der Graf wrote:
[OBI-WAN: (continuing) You have allowed this Dark Lord to twist your mind until now . . . until now you have become the very thing you swore to destroy.


This line makes no sense to me.

Maybe I'm missing it.

He's become evil and as such is something he swore to destroy, is what I get from it, but gramatically it makes no sense.

UNTIL now he was evil? err..


Post Posted: July 15th 2005 9:07 pm
 
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"You have allowed this dark lord to twist you mind. Until now...until now, you have become the very thing you swore to destroy."

I think it only makes sense that way, but he merges into one long ass sentence.


Post Posted: July 15th 2005 10:17 pm
 

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If you use the word "until" as a conjunction, it means "to the point or extent that". For example, "I kept running until I was tired". Substitute the meaning into Obi-Wan's line - "You have allowed this Dark Lord to twist your mind to the point or extent that you have become the very thing you swore to destroy".

It makes perfect sense.


Post Posted: July 16th 2005 2:52 pm
 

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well said jojoba, couldnt have been explained any better

the only thing that kinda threw it off was now, but it makes the dialogue sound more real


Post Posted: July 16th 2005 3:25 pm
 

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Also, rememeber that the last time Obi saw Ani was when they said goodbye as Obi left for Utapau, so this is the first chance he's had to confront him face-to-face about becoming a Sith. Hence "now", maybe?


Post Posted: July 16th 2005 4:27 pm
 
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That's what I got from it, I just think the line is a little awkward.

could have been:

"You have allowed this dark lord to twist your mind....(and if you wanted to get creative)....come back. Stop yourself from becoming the very thing you've sworn to destroy!"



As an aside, I was watching the saber fight and I'm thinking 'why is this fight so underappreciated?' It's easily the most complex, most emotional and most action packed fight in the saga. I don't get why it isn't getting the love and admiration it deserves. Some people will say 'cause it was so hyped up, yada yada....but the fight delivers. The Yoda/Palps fight is great, but it's two scenes. There are sequences in the Ani/Obi fight that are just remarkable. What comes to mind is the second sequence where they're dueling across a bridge and the pipe-walking. Just amazing.


Post Posted: July 16th 2005 5:35 pm
 

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I've always thought that line doesn't really make sense... and actually means the complete opposite of what Obi-Wan means. If 'until' had been replaced with 'and' it would be fine.

But the way jojoba explained it makes sense. It just seems


Post Posted: July 16th 2005 8:00 pm
 
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The end duel is most awesome when it's cutting between Vader/Obi-Wan and Sidious/Yoda. The combined intensity of the fights, music and emotion behind it is extraordinary.


Post Posted: July 17th 2005 10:35 am
 
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The only part I still quote to myself is when Anakin is yelling at Obi-wan at the end. It's a great part and if you notice Anakin is always say "I" or "me" just like his dialogue to his dead mother was centered on him, not her, where Cliegg's speech was centered on her. He's true to his character to the very end and was very well done.


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