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Post Posted: July 3rd 2005 6:57 pm
 
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I'd buy TPM again if they sort out Yoda and give the film the digital transfer/remastering every other instalment in the saga has been privy to. As for Episode III, I really like the movie the way it is and would prefer to see deleted scenes confined to the second disc.

All the same, I'd love to see some rebellion formation odds and ends. :chewbacca:


Post Posted: July 3rd 2005 7:58 pm
 
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Thundercracker wrote:
Uh, since the DVD. The theatrical version of the scene ended after Anakin said "I hate them!" if I remember correctly. The DVD added back in Anakin's remorse for his actions and Padme trying to console him "To be angry it to be human".

tlbauerle wrote:
Not true...these changes were made in the DLP version of the film. They were NOT made strictly for the DVD.


The brief moment when Anakin says "I'm a Jedi, I know I'm better than this" and then starts crying as Padme gets closer to him was added to the DVD, and was not in the digital screenings during the films release. :monocle:


Post Posted: July 3rd 2005 10:00 pm
 
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tlbauerle wrote:
Not true...these changes were made in the DLP version of the film. They were NOT made strictly for the DVD.


Wrong. The only thing different about the AOTC DLP version was the shot of Anakin's new hand as he holds Padme's.


Post Posted: July 4th 2005 7:11 am
 
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tlbauerle wrote:
Not true...these changes were made in the DLP version of the film. They were NOT made strictly for the DVD.

CoGro wrote:
Wrong. The only thing different about the AOTC DLP version was the shot of Anakin's new hand as he holds Padme's.


That, and the sparks shooting out of Jango's jetpack to show that it was busted.


Post Posted: July 4th 2005 11:31 am
 

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Treadwell wrote:
I'd rather we got the extras Star Wars deserves.
If some fan can cobble together Deleted Magic, I don't see why Lucas couldn't cobble together a decent and comprehensive "deleted scenes" section.


A lot of times, especially for older releases, the deleted scenes are either not fully produced (no score or unfinished effects) or sub-par in terms of audio and video quality compared to the film itself. Judging by the prequel DVD deleted scenes, I think George wants to clean up the cut footage (which by this point, will take a much greater effort to restore than the movies themselves did), and perhaps even have it scored before the deleted scenes are included on a dvd. .


Post Posted: July 4th 2005 11:33 am
 

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Treadwell wrote:
I'd rather we got the extras Star Wars deserves.
If some fan can cobble together Deleted Magic, I don't see why Lucas couldn't cobble together a decent and comprehensive "deleted scenes" section.

FightingWithClay wrote:
A lot of times, especially for older releases, the deleted scenes are either not fully produced (no score or unfinished effects) or sub-par in terms of audio and video quality compared to the film itself. Judging by the prequel DVD deleted scenes, I think George wants to clean up the cut footage (which by this point, will take a much greater effort to restore than the movies themselves did), and perhaps even have it scored before the deleted scenes are included on a dvd. .


Agreed. The deleted scene from ESB in 'Empire of Dreams' just felt empty and incomplete somehow without the score and other things to fill it out. I don't know about the rest of you, but I'd rather Lucas and co. take their time to finish them off properly rather than just throwing them onto a disc and sending 'em on down the line.

But what do I know?


Post Posted: July 4th 2005 12:02 pm
 
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The deleted scenes in Empire of Dreams are fun. I like that one where Luke reaches over the back of his landspeeder to fix something and C-3P0 says, camp as a cucumber, "oh, that's much better", preceded with the narrator's timely commentry, "the first cut of Star Wars was an unmitigated disaster". :lol:

The alternate take on the Han/Leia Bespin exchange was an eye-opener as well. It's a testament to the quality control of the Empire team that this scene was rewritten, despite its original incarnation being superior to any Padme/Anakin exchange in AOTC.


Post Posted: July 4th 2005 5:39 pm
 
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While this isn't exactly related, does anyone else think Lucas is kinda defeating his own mission of getting people to see the films as 1-6 if he kicks off the 3D releases with ANH? I know it's the 30th anniversery, but still.


Post Posted: July 4th 2005 6:24 pm
 
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Wrath Mania wrote:
...kinda defeating his own mission...


Not really. He does mean for it to be one big chronological story, but at the same time he concieved it the way the Flash Gordon serials were done. That is, you could see Episode 4 or whatever first and then catch up with the other episodes later. Or you could see 1 - 6 in that order, or just see whichever ones you want.

In other words, it is supposed to work to see it in order, but your brain isn't going to melt if you watch it a different way.


Post Posted: July 5th 2005 4:18 pm
 
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More from thedigitalbits.com:

We've checked in with our retail and industry sources and have learned that Lucasfilm and 20th Century Fox are currently planning to announce the DVD release of Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith as early as next week. With any luck, we'll get final cover art and complete disc specs as part of the announcement. Our information is that the title is expected to street on either 11/1 or 11/8, in separate full frame and anamorphic widescreen editions. We MAY also learn about the future box set release of the complete 6-film saga.

Stay tuned!


Post Posted: July 5th 2005 5:29 pm
 
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Coll stuff, thanks for posting... :heavymetal:


Post Posted: July 6th 2005 11:13 am
 
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"The Lost Cut" and an Extended Holiday Special as bonus discs in the 10 DVDA box set in 2008...

That's actually something for which I might even consider buying a BluHDVDRayblablabla player. :D


Post Posted: July 6th 2005 7:56 pm
 
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No fucking way GL is gonna ever release the Holiday Special thingie on DVD...

Nobody likes that shit, not even GL himself...

But the Lost Cut thing is precious! :heavymetal:


Post Posted: July 7th 2005 4:12 am
 

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I would love to see footage of the lost cut, only seen the pics...


Post Posted: July 7th 2005 6:29 am
 
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USAToday is stating that an 11/8 date for the DVD is pretty well set in stone.

This will be the same week that Shrek 2, Shrek, etc etc have made street date.


Post Posted: July 7th 2005 8:52 am
 
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just because the yoda puppet is there does not mean that its harder to make him CG..... did any of you people watch the E.t. special edition?

Also on those documentaries about Jar Jar... they did a few takes with ahmed in the suit, and some clean takes as well. They did the same process in the lord of the rings with gollum. Digitally removing an actor isnt too hard of a process, replacing yoda would be nothing to do. E.t was a simple process, there is no reason why yoda wouldnt be, especially since they modelling it all set, aside from a few changes.


Post Posted: July 7th 2005 9:01 am
 
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It's not that it would be hard to do, just time-consuming and unnecessary.


Post Posted: July 7th 2005 10:50 am
 
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I'd argue it's necessary. That puppet looks nothing like any version of Yoda. Continuity-wise it should be addressed. Plus it looks wank.


Post Posted: July 7th 2005 11:01 am
 
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cardboard monster wrote:
Plus it looks wank.


Fucking bullshit, that is.

This has been discussed to death elsewhere on this forum. Yoda is OLDER and closer to death in Episodes 5 & 6. It makes perfect sense that he would walk and move a little slower or be more stiff.

And, the puppet as well as the CGI both look brilliant and work just fine (with the exception of the TPM puppet, of course).

:?


Post Posted: July 7th 2005 11:32 am
 
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Oh, my bad! I thought we were talking about the Phantom Menace puppet. No you're utterly correct, the Empire and Jedi puppets look great and shouldn't ever be messed with. Peace.


Post Posted: July 7th 2005 11:34 am
 
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cardboard monster wrote:
Peace.


Indeed. I could use me some. :heavymetal:


Post Posted: July 7th 2005 1:23 pm
 

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Bandersnatch wrote:
This has been discussed to death elsewhere on this forum. Yoda is OLDER and closer to death in Episodes 5 & 6. It makes perfect sense that he would walk and move a little slower or be more stiff.


It does not make perfect sense, though, that he should lose the ability to blink or move his eyeballs in any direction.


Post Posted: July 7th 2005 1:30 pm
 
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I was referring to the phantom menace yoda too. I mean if they really wanted to they could go into ESB and ROTJ and make him a little more expressive like in the prequels, but its totally unncessecary, the puppet in those movies is totally believable, I loved it.


As for the TPM one thats the one I would like to see have a digital makeover


Post Posted: July 7th 2005 1:36 pm
 
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JRA81984 wrote:
As for the TPM one thats the one I would like to see have a digital makeover

Truu. While Obi-Wan has been in solitude on Tatooine learning about the path to immortality, Yoda has been learning how not to blink or be distracted by distant/close objects. Go Yoda go.


Post Posted: July 7th 2005 1:41 pm
 
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Since when does Yoda not blink or move his eyes in ESB or ROTJ? :?


Post Posted: July 7th 2005 1:43 pm
 

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Since last night, when I watched ESB. Tried doing so yourself lately, or do you live in a world where people just post shit in order to see their names up on the screen?


Post Posted: July 7th 2005 1:49 pm
 
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After the 2nd time I saw ROTS, I came home and looked at Yoda's scenes in ESB & ROTJ. His eyelids do move a bit and his eyeballs don't just stick in one place the whole time. Sure the CGI Yoda is more "flexible," but saying the puppet version simply does not blink or look around isn't quite accurate. He's just old and stiff, kinda like when my grandpa got old and later died. He sort of looks like him, too. Especially the ears.


Post Posted: July 7th 2005 1:59 pm
 

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His eyelids, or more precisely his eyebrows, do move a lot. He squints, he scrunches his face up. But he never blinks once.

And yes, he looks around -- by moving his head. But his eyeballs don't change position. They constantly stare straight ahead.

People tend to be a lot more forgiving of Yoda in the OT than in TPM, probably for nostalgic reasons. But the simple truth is that the puppet doesn't have anywhere near the range or flexibility of expression that the CG Yoda from ROTS does.


Post Posted: July 7th 2005 2:04 pm
 
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On the other hand - while acting brilliantly - the digital Yoda face seems mushy and squashed. His different facial texture-parts flows around like pudding, feeling unconnected with the bone structure.


Post Posted: July 7th 2005 2:09 pm
 
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Ayatollah Krispies wrote:
...the puppet doesn't have anywhere near the range or flexibility of expression that the CG Yoda from ROTS does.


Yeah, that's true. I'm just saying the OT puppet's stiffness is acceptable, not just for nostalgic reasons. I hated Yoda back in 1980. I thought he looked stupid and sounded like Miss Piggy with a cold. But I got used to it. His puppetness is acceptable as an old, worn out Yoda, if you buy into the chronology of the story. Hell, you could just pass it off by saying that over the years the lighting Sidious shot up his ass had a long lasting permanent arthritic affect on him. :cool:

But when I watched his scenes for comparison right after seeing ROTS, there was nothing that jumped out at me as being wrong about his appearance. Different, but not neccesarily that bad or inconsistant.

Also, maybe I'm wrong, I thought they had some electronic gadgets in the puppet Yoda's head back when the shot ESB to make his eyes move a bit.


Post Posted: July 7th 2005 5:22 pm
 
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There's alot of technical problems with Yoda in ESB. Whenever he uses his arms or hands you can see it's a seperate piece being controlled by another puppeteer. His eyes do not move during ESB. His head does, he squints and the such, but does not blink and does not look around. That is a fact. Go watch the movie.

That being said, Frank's brilliant performance makes the puppet work. Is the puppet perfect? Not at all, far from it, but you suspend your disbelief and *poof* you have a magical character.

On the flipside you have the digital Yoda, which looks best in ROTS. It's got unbelieveable flexibility and puts out great performances. Better than Frank in the OT? Sadly, yes. The CG Yoda is a more expressive and a more real character in Episode III. A great example of how genius the CG can be is during the post-qui-gon scene near the end of the movie. He opens his eyes, looks around, blinks and looks back at Bail - That's a huge emotional moment that the puppet could never pull off. It has it's moments in II, but by III, they really got it down where it counts. There's still a few scenes handled by lesser skilled animators and texture artists, but Yoda at his best in III is more alive and more real than Yoda at his best in V or VI. Is he more classic? I dunno, that's personal opinion, in mine he's not. I love Frank Oz, but technically the ROTS Yoda is a superior rendition of the character.

To answer the question 'will Yoda be digitized in the OT?' No. He won't. George will live with the technical imperfections because he loves those performances. If there's things in the OT George won't change, it's what he thinks worked in the original release. He always praised Yoda and Oz's efforts and even tried to get him an Oscar nod. He will never tamper with that piece of the film. He'll add a CGI scene here and there or make Greedo shoot first, but he will never replace a working character with something else. TPM...that's another matter. Yoda doesn't really work there as well. He hates the puppet (as do most fans) and based on the stark differences between it and Yoda's rendition in the rest of the PT, there's every reason to change it, which he did. I'd also go back and fix up Yoda's weaker moments in AOTC and ROTS (though there are few instances of it here).


Post Posted: July 7th 2005 5:36 pm
 
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I'm with you CoGro. You nailed exactly why Yoda will never be replaced in the OT. Everytime Lucas has talked about Yoda in Empire, he always says that if the puppet hadn't have worked, it would have been a joke.

The only problem I've ever had with the CG Yoda is that he's a little too over-animated at points in AOTC (Watch him in Palpatine's office; It looks like ILM wanted you to notice him more, so they had him fiddle a lot). He's perfect in ROTS, however.


Post Posted: July 7th 2005 5:37 pm
 

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CoGro wrote:
To answer the question 'will Yoda be digitized in the OT?' No. He won't. George will live with the technical imperfections because he loves those performances. If there's things in the OT George won't change, it's what he thinks worked in the original release.


Right, that's the key point. The puppet Yoda wasn't able to do as much as the CG Yoda does, but wisely Kershner, Marquand and Lucas didn't ask for it to do that much, and so it works. There'd be very little gained by digitizing it -- certainly not enough to make it worth the time and trouble.


Post Posted: July 7th 2005 6:55 pm
 
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ETAndElliot4Ever wrote:
The only problem I've ever had with the CG Yoda is that he's a little too over-animated at points in AOTC (Watch him in Palpatine's office; It looks like ILM wanted you to notice him more, so they had him fiddle a lot). He's perfect in ROTS, however.


There's a few scenes where Yoda could be touched up, and this is definately one of them. He's fine in Palps office until he starts to speak, when he's just idle he's photoreal. When he's walking around, it's fine too, it's just when he talks.

He's also pretty inconsistent. He'll look terrific in two scenes, but the model in each looks completely different. This is due to the fact that different animators help bring the character to life.

Off the top of my head, here are some places CG Yoda is not up to par in AOTC:
- Palps office
- First council meeting (the animation and model are bang on, but the texture is off. Way too cartoony)
- floating pod Yoda
- Yoda's texturing during "Do not assume anything, Obi-wan" I love the animation here, but the texture job is off.
- Yoda's mouth animation during "Young Skywalker is in pain, terrible pain."
- "Begun the Clone War, has"

Some highlights of AOTC would be:
- Yoda during the younglings scene
- Yoda during the Senate
- Yoda during the latter half of the Dooku duel, especially using the force to hold the pillar.

There's just too much diversity of talent that worked on Yoda there, and that's why a much smaller number worked on him in ROTS - to make him look more consistent throughout the show. The model is basically the same in every shot he's used with only a few shots straying off path, but even those are very well done. Just look at Yoda during the escape pod scene on Kashyyyk...it could very well be a puppet (or a living thing) and you wouldn't know. When he's crawling through the piping, he looks so real that it's eery. His movements there look very natural, it''s just wonderful animation.


Post Posted: July 7th 2005 7:35 pm
 
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The continuity is a problem within the film. May be nitpicking a bit too much, but this shot has always bugged my because Yoda has never reacted to anything like that. Even at the end of the movie when Dooku is throwing stuff at him, he barely moves.


Post Posted: July 7th 2005 8:01 pm
 
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Just to add to what CoGro said about different animators working on Yoda...

For AOTC they had a library of basic facial expressions that each animator would use to start with. Problem was that these expressions had to be "dialed in" by the animator and naturally each animator would dial in the shapes a bit differently which made the final expression look a bit different.

For ROTS, the shape library was cleaned out and eight new key expressions were created that could be accessed at the hit of a button. So each animator could now start with the same main expression and work from there.


Post Posted: July 7th 2005 8:26 pm
 
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ETAndElliot4Ever wrote:
The continuity is a problem within the film. May be nitpicking a bit too much, but this shot has always bugged my because Yoda has never reacted to anything like that. Even at the end of the movie when Dooku is throwing stuff at him, he barely moves.

Yeah, that reaction has always bothered me. Background shots are typically given to less experienced animators eager to see their work on the big screen. These should have been vetted more carefully.

I'd argue consistency issues are as much, if not more, to do with the post processes of texturing and lighting as they are with animation. The static model can look pretty different with even minor alterations to the lighting. Different animation techniques obviously exacerbate the 'problem', but variations can be observed in stills.

Image Image

AOTC Yoda remains a fantastic achievement but his ROTS incarnation is a fantastic improvement in all regards, particularly consistency.


Post Posted: July 7th 2005 8:55 pm
 
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Indigo one wrote:
Image
Image

may be I'm just an idiot who doesn't know what I'm talking about. :?


If anything, those two are among the more similar models.

Image

This Yoda is from AOTC as well. "More happening on Geonosis I feel than has been revealed." Goes to show you the great differences within a single film.


Post Posted: July 8th 2005 4:33 am
 
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In any case, the Phantom Menace Yoda should be swapped.

Image Image


Post Posted: July 8th 2005 4:48 am
 
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thats a great comparison cardboardmonster :heavymetal: I never really viewed TPM yoda next to any of the other PT yoda's. That definitely needs to be fixed and I would definitely buy TPM or the box again for that fix


Post Posted: July 8th 2005 1:49 pm
 
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stan Marsh wrote:
That definitely needs to be fixed and I would definitely but TPM or the box again for that fix


In a heartbeat


Post Posted: July 18th 2005 2:14 pm
 
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Yoda does move his eyeballs in TESB. When he's talking to the spirit of Obi-Wan, for example, he turns away from Luke and looks into the roof of his cabin, turning his eyeballs to the very left. When turning his head again his eyes centers back on Luke.

If you pop the Empire Of Dreams back into your dvd-player and watch the Yoda segment, Frank Oz even mention the controls for the eyes.


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cardboard monster wrote:
In any case, the Phantom Menace Yoda should be swapped.

Image Image


I actually laughed out loud when I saw that. I'd forgotten how idiotic TPM Yoda looked.


Post Posted: July 21st 2005 5:32 am
 
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Lightivity wrote:
...Frank Oz even mention the controls for the eyes.


That's what I was saying here before. But was promptly told to "go watch the movie." :whateva:


Post Posted: July 21st 2005 9:21 am
 
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In that same doc you hear Kirsch say we got about 2 blinks from Yoda the entire film, and of those two blinks, one made the cut and even it isn't a full blink - it's just from his eyes closed to open.

You can also see in that doc the extreme amount of trouble they have getting the eye line to match, therefore they merely moved the puppet's head when Yoda had to change eyeline. Yoda's eyes move, but maybe once or twice in the entire film. I would hardly call that emotive, and since this conversation started I believe, about the expressiveness of the puppet - 2 blinks and 2 eye movements in the entire film do not constitute a expressive character.


Post Posted: July 21st 2005 10:19 am
 
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CoGro wrote:
...2 blinks and 2 eye movemens in the entire film do not constitute a expressive character.


Now that is something I have to disagree with. Puppet Yoda comes off as very expressive, he just isn't doing backflips all over the place. The expressivness, whether it's puppetry or CGI, is all an illusion. We are convinced that he's a "real" creature whether he blinks once, twice or 8 million times.
In fact, I never really noticed that he doesn't blink or roll his eyes much until I read about it here.

But anyway, I do need to sit down and watch all these movies again soon. 'Cept now I'll be counting blinks! :monocle:


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CoGro wrote:
...2 blinks and 2 eye movemens in the entire film do not constitute a expressive character.

Bandersnatch wrote:
Now that is something I have to disagree with. Puppet Yoda comes off as very expressive, he just isn't doing backflips all over the place. The expressivness, whether it's puppetry or CGI, is all an illusion. We are convinced that he's a real creature whether he blinks once, twice or 8 million times.


I should revise:

I meant in relation to what the CG Yoda of ROTS can do physically. Of course the brilliance of Frank Oz makes the character believeable, but Yoda in ESB could not do the things that he can do now. It has nothing to do with his action sequences, I point to his calm emotional moments - meditating and awaking to the call of Bail Organa, brooding the future of the galaxy. There's real weight to that performance and it accomplishes something that the ESB Yoda never could. Oz has some great moments in ESB - the speech Yoda gives Luke after he fails to lift the x-wing comes to mind - but with the arrival of this new rendition, I have to say the ROTS model is superior. Though the ESB puppet is memorable and will always be a classic, ROTS Yoda is more emotionally involved.


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