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Post Posted: July 1st 2005 9:28 pm
 
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Wrath Mania wrote:
Williams actually rescored that cue for Episode III, it's not just recycled from Episode I. It's on the Soundtrack as well.

It really depends on the scene. I had no problem with the "The Tide Turns" being used in the crash sequence, or the Federation theme in the battle of Kashyyyk. And what at least SEEMS to be completely tracked music to me, and no one complains about it all because it works so well, is the "Duel of the Fates" segment in Yoda VS Sidious.

Using the Arena Battle theme in Anakin's march, though, is a valid complaint.


Duel of the Fates was scored for ROTS - see PH's set diary from Abbey Road. But if it WAS tracked, I wouldn't have complained because it works well.


Post Posted: July 11th 2005 4:18 pm
 
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CoGro wrote:
Wrath Mania wrote:
Williams actually rescored that cue for Episode III, it's not just recycled from Episode I. It's on the Soundtrack as well.

It really depends on the scene. I had no problem with the "The Tide Turns" being used in the crash sequence, or the Federation theme in the battle of Kashyyyk. And what at least SEEMS to be completely tracked music to me, and no one complains about it all because it works so well, is the "Duel of the Fates" segment in Yoda VS Sidious.

Using the Arena Battle theme in Anakin's march, though, is a valid complaint.


Duel of the Fates was scored for ROTS - see PH's set diary from Abbey Road. But if it WAS tracked, I wouldn't have complained because it works well.


Ditto that. The retracking in the OT always works well too. In some instances, perhaps we are analyzing these films under too fine a microscope, but the replaying of tracks in the PT was just not as good. It was remarkably noticeable, and more than often, not appropriate.

Think to Empire Strikes Back, the Han and Leia love theme dominates the end action sequences. How much more powerful would AOTC have been had Across the Stars found its way into the arena battle and Clone War battle? I have no doubt that that simple change would dramatically alter the reaction fans had to it. Not that it had a negative reaction on the whole from fans, I believe it was a very positive one, but I believe it would've been seen in the same light as ESB.


Also, a question - is everything we hear on the soundtrack in the movie? On track 7, I believe it is, there is some kick ass music, I know some of it is during the beginning Greivous interactions, but I feel some of the music made the cutting room floor. I'm going to blame Ben Burtt, the man who is on record as saying he likes to turn the volume of JW's music down so his effects are louder....


Post Posted: July 11th 2005 4:26 pm
 
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Track 7 is used during the last part of the Grievous/Obi chase.

There's alot of unused music that would fit nicely in places where old music was used. I should be hired by LFL to do it.

In ESB, the 'tracked music' was actually scored for those specific scenes. You're probably thinking of the Hoth music when Rogue 2 is looking for Luke and Han that is used during the end of movie where the Falcon is trying to jump into lightspeed. In fact, it's the same rif re-scored for that sequence.


Post Posted: July 11th 2005 4:32 pm
 
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CoGro wrote:
Track 7 is used during the last part of the Grievous/Obi chase.

There's alot of unused music that would fit nicely in places where old music was used. I should be hired by LFL to do it.

In ESB, the 'tracked music' was actually scored for those specific scenes. You're probably thinking of the Hoth music when Rogue 2 is looking for Luke and Han that is used during the end of movie where the Falcon is trying to jump into lightspeed. In fact, it's the same rif re-scored for that sequence.


Hmm, good call(and I might add, that lil piece of music was always a personal fave). Yes, I really do think LFL should hire you to do it. I just don't understand why they mailed it in in critical places. Why spend 4 years on a movie than half ass it on the home stretch?


Post Posted: July 11th 2005 4:41 pm
 
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It's cause JW delivers the score in February. During which time the editors and Lucas are still piecing together the film and cutting. In the old days, the score was pretty much set to the finished movies. Not so anymore. You'll notice alot of movies that require alot of music, especially blockbusters, have pieced together scores. In Star Wars siince these themes are so well know, errors jump out at you more.

If Johny scored the film in April, most of these problems would disappear, but it's not really an option since people have their schedules and he needs ample time to get the work done.

I think John did deliver alot of great music this time around that could have been tracked better than it was. Most of it is VERY well done, but the blemishes always shout louder. I just don't get the logic of that Temple music.


Post Posted: July 11th 2005 5:34 pm
 
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CoGro wrote:
I think John did deliver alot of great music this time around that could have been tracked better than it was. Most of it is VERY well done, but the blemishes always shout louder. I just don't get the logic of that Temple music.


There is always the DVD, then there is plenty of time to make ammendments....but I am 99.9% sure no changes will be made. Ignorant fool as I was, I truly believed the end battles of AOTC would be rescored for the DVD...


Post Posted: July 11th 2005 8:32 pm
 
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As much as I would love to hope, I know it's not going to happen.


Post Posted: July 12th 2005 8:33 am
 

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In the OT, Williams wrote character themes (much in the vein of Prokovief's Peter and the Wolf) where everyone and almost everything had it own theme, so when the moment came to remember something or to underscore the emotion, the music theme cued you in the weight of the moment.

Now for the PT, it seems to me that Lucas urged Williams to only write generic action adventure riffs rather than themes to define a character (which I'm sure we all agree, the characters coulda used help in being more defined!) And instead of at least three new major themes written for each film like in the OT, now only one or two major themes were written per PT movie (Anakin's theme, Duel of the Fates - Across the Stars - Battle of the Heroes). Everything else is either little motifs (Battle Droid March, Gen Greivous) or innocuous action cues.

That one PT cue in particular... the "rousing" action cue used during:
-The Pod Race when Anakin's pod gets stuck with Selbula's...
-When Yoda comes to the rescue with the Clone Troopers in the Arena...
-When Greivous's ship starts falling back to Coursant making Anakin, Obi-Wan & Palpatine slide in the elevator shaft...
is SO overused it drives me mad!

Reprising musical material on the musical stage or on film is meant to reflect on an established idea, character or emotion. Case in point, the aborted end credit track in CLONES on the OST, at the very end, a beautiful sorrowful solo horn plays a quote of Anakin's theme, showing us that the good person who was Anakin was slipping away. But Lucas didn't think we needed that! He lazily tracks previous cues because he can't stop his last minute fiddling. Cues, which have nothing to do with the content of what's on screen, are used just because it's an "rousing action piece".

I wonder if he keeps changes his clothes over and over again just before he goes out...?


Post Posted: July 12th 2005 4:42 pm
 

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TPM- Qui-Gon's funeral, Sith v Jedi duel, The Trade Federation, Jar Jar and Anakin all had their own themes

AOTC- Across the Stars and the Ominous Strings thing (from the Jedi's meeting with Palp and Obi-Wan spying on the Separatists); Duel of the Fates, Trade Fed theme + Anakin's theme referenced

ROTS- ATS, DOTF and Qui-Gon's funeral referenced

As far as themes in the PT go, a lot of characters/motifs/vagaries/etc already had pre-defined themes- Yoda, the Emperor, Leia, the Force, etc. New themes couldn't really be written for them and, I'd argue, Episode III is really the wrong time to introduce a lot of new major themes anyway.

I think it's kind of sad that someone thinks a musical theme somehow creates depth to a character (esp those as thinly sketched as the OT characters), but hey, what do I know?


Post Posted: July 12th 2005 5:01 pm
 
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mr.microphone wrote:
Now for the PT, it seems to me that Lucas urged Williams to only write generic action adventure riffs rather than themes to define a character (which I'm sure we all agree, the characters coulda used help in being more defined!)

That's a rediculous and untrue statement. Don't give JW all the credit in the world because it's fashionable to blame Lucas for everything including AIDS. The themes were there, which leads to....

mr.microphone wrote:
And instead of at least three new major themes written for each film like in the OT, now only one or two major themes were written per PT movie (Anakin's theme, Duel of the Fates - Across the Stars - Battle of the Heroes). Everything else is either little motifs (Battle Droid March, Gen Greivous) or innocuous action cues.

I think you're confusing memorable themes you grew up with, with new themes you don't like as much. They're both THEMES.

Duel of the Fates, Anakin's theme, and the Droid March are the three big themes of TPM. There's also a bunch of motifs - Jar Jar's, Qui-Gon's, Sith whisper, Coruscant's motif, the Jedi council motif and Tattooine's motif. In addition to these NEW themes, the force theme, the Emperor's Theme, the main titles and hints of the Imperial March and Yoda's theme exist in the film. Moreover, the action music is very thematic, often using these motifs as the base. The Naboo action music towards the end is a good example of that.

In AOTC, besides Across the Stars there isn't much there. You've got a few motifs like Kamino, Geonosis and the mystery, but it's easily the weakest score overall. You're going to blame Lucas for that? Even the mostly unused Arena music isn't that strong, and that's hardly George's fault. Give me a break. Especially since ROTS has a few new themes and alternate versions of old ones.

Grievous' THEME is a THEME. It was even woven into the film a few times with alternate versions. It could have been used a little more even. Anakin's Betrayal is also a THEME. It underscores the tragedy of the film. Battle of the Heroes is the theme of the film, but it should have been used once or twice quietly in the first act. Also keep in mind ROTS is a transition film and you've got a ton of themes from both the PT and the OT in there. ROTS is probably the richest thematic score in the saga. It's got it's share of motifs including the Mustafar's, Bail's rescue, the ending (Anakin's burning scene, which appears during Yoda's meditation) and Palpatine's rise. All the action music in Sith is thematic, it's not filler like it was in Clones.

mr.microphone wrote:
That one PT cue in particular... the "rousing" action cue used during:
-The Pod Race when Anakin's pod gets stuck with Selbula's...
-When Yoda comes to the rescue with the Clone Troopers in the Arena...
-When Greivous's ship starts falling back to Coursant making Anakin, Obi-Wan & Palpatine slide in the elevator shaft...
is SO overused it drives me mad!

Yes, but that's neither the fault of Lucas or Williams, just horrible sound editors. I agree, though. It's agitating as hell and I wish it was gone.

mr.microphone wrote:
Reprising musical material on the musical stage or on film is meant to reflect on an established idea, character or emotion. Case in point, the aborted end credit track in CLONES on the OST, at the very end, a beautiful sorrowful solo horn plays a quote of Anakin's theme, showing us that the good person who was Anakin was slipping away. But Lucas didn't think we needed that! He lazily tracks previous cues because he can't stop his last minute fiddling. Cues, which have nothing to do with the content of what's on screen, are used just because it's an "rousing action piece".


Are you retarded? Firstly, you're trashing Lucas for a job he didn't do. Secondly, nothing is tracked into the end credits in place of what's on the soundtrack (especially not action music, which would reflect what on screen? Moving words?), it's just that the last bit is cut off. Thirdly, you're trashing the shortening of an END CREDIT bit which 99 percent of people aren't around to hear, so what is it reflecting ON SCREEN? It's in the soundtrack for the listener, but it would serve no real purpose at the end of the film's credits. It would have been more useful if he used that music somewhere in the actual FILM, but are you going to blame Lucas for that too? Maybe tie Anakin's theme into Across the Stars somehow tied into the Imperial March? There's a few places I can see this working in the film such as during the tusken slaughter or the confession, but instead we get the simple filler music already spoken of. Is it Lucas's job to tell John how to be creative? Is Lucas not the one who has said numerous times that the music is his favourite part of the film because HE DOESN'T HAVE TO DO ANYTHING?


Post Posted: July 12th 2005 6:45 pm
 

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CoGro wrote:
Duel of the Fates, Anakin's theme, and the Droid March are the three big themes of TPM. There's also a bunch of motifs - Jar Jar's, Qui-Gon's, Sith whisper, Coruscant's motif, the Jedi council motif and Tattooine's motif. In addition to these NEW themes, the force theme, the Emperor's Theme, the main titles and hints of the Imperial March and Yoda's theme exist in the film. Moreover, the action music is very thematic, often using these motifs as the base. The Naboo action music towards the end is a good example of that.


Good points all around, I can't believe I missed those. :monocle:


Post Posted: July 12th 2005 11:43 pm
 

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I'm not trying to stir up the greatest debate in history.

Granted the score for the PT is different than the score for the OT by the very nature that they are 2 different stories told in different styles. And granted still that JW created a vast amount of new melodic material for the PT. And certainly this is an argument of individual taste of what constitutes a THEME or MOTIF , (yes, I also admit to preferring the OT score) but my argument is that much of the PT score lacks the necessary emotion that previous Star Wars (and JW's other film scores) had shown.
And I'm talking about the emotion needed to bring the audience into the story, and not just for having the music down because a character is sad, or having the music up because someone on screen is happy.

And that's partly because of the PT music material being recycled (reprised) is ONLY because Lucas wanted to simply score a particular scene (in most cases, action oriented) at the last minute and didn't want or wasn't able to get JW to re-score. That's cutting corners. That's lazy. And as director, he's ultimately responsible.

The Empire Strikes Back. Most every SW fan (with some expection) calls that a top fav if not the best one. Part of the reason, aside from some definate places where music was tracked or edited, JW's score has so much depth because Irvin Kershner cared more for the characters and their struggles, then just to score the visuals. The use of Yoda's theme when Luke storms through Bespin reminds us of his newly learned Jedi teachings. The Love theme played out during Leia's escape from Bespin reminds us that she wants to fight to save Han. Vader's theme echos in so many variations that this whole space romp has a dark undercurrent that isn't going to end well.

I didn't get any of that from much of the PT's score. "Watch out, here comes the Battle Droids" - yup, there's that Battle Droid music... the EXACT SAME cue again! "Oh, no! Anakin's Pod is in danger", or "Here comes the Clones army to save the Jedis", or "Uh, oh! Our heroes are in trouble!" and there's that SAME rousing cue again and again and again, with nothing tying any of those separate situations in three different films together - story, emotion or otherwise - other than Lucas or JW's music editor Ken Wannberg saying, "You know the piece of music we used over there? Maybe it'll fit here, because I can't find anything in the length or tempo we need." In those places, the music is now regarded as a crutch, rather than part of the storytelling.

That is my argument.

It's great the JW or Lucas reprised the EBS duel music with Yoda and Palpatine in ROTS, or when the Death Star attack music is heard in ANH and then is reprised in ROTJ during a similar raid against the new Death Star... great also. But there were REASONS for that. To remind the audience, to get them emotionally involved as any great film is supposed to do. Lately, to me (and only to me it seems) it would appear the use of "reprised music" in the PT is ONLY because of last minute tweaks of a SP FX nature, NOT because of deliberate storytelling.

Lucas gets alot of things right, but I get the feeling that he's happy with "good enough" (I believe that was part of the falling out he had with Gary Kurtz in an interview I read somewhere online.)

This is a forum topic on music only and not on style, story, acting, SP FX or Lucas as a person. As far as the music is conerned, in the PT, it's either Lucas' or JW's desire to have the music not contain the staying power or the necessary drive (melodically and emotionally) as the OT scores. No name calling here, and no personal attacks on someone's integrity. Just one man's simple critque.

As a fan for the last 28 yrs plunking down my $$$ for the toys and the tapes and the DVDs and the CDs and the Sheet Music (!), I'm happy that's my emotional involvement with the saga has nearly run it's course. The PT episodes are my 7 yr old son's films, and like any unfashionable out of touch old man, I guess I'm cranky about that "loud new rock n roll" the kids are listening to today.

It's just not as pretty as the music I grew up with.

Now excuse me, I'm going out to catch the early bird dinner specials!


Post Posted: July 14th 2005 5:18 pm
 

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Lately, to me (and only to me it seems) it would appear the use of "reprised music" in the PT is ONLY because of last minute tweaks of a SP FX nature, NOT because of deliberate storytelling.

It's not just you. I feel the same way. But god forbid you criticize Lucas for something here on these boards.

People saying the music isn't George's fault or responsibility are just plain wrong. As the director, Lucas was responsible for approving everything about the film. If there was anything Lucas wasn't happy with it's his job to say so. Apparently he didn't care enough to bother fixing the soundtracks, or he just ran out of time because of his last-minute editing. Either way, it is ultimately Lucas's responsibility.


Post Posted: July 14th 2005 9:15 pm
 
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my biggest knock on the PT scores, specifically those of Episodes II and III, is the lack of development to certain themes. Anakin's theme should have played a larger role in II. It should have matured into a less innocent, more hardnosed tune and could have been featured during the slaughter or during action scenes. It also could have evolved a little more into the march, just as the Episode I theme teased. By III we could have had a dark Anakin theme woven with the march during the first half so by the second half we've musically reached the creation of Darth Vader.

Something like that should have been paid closer attention to, especially because Episode I set a good starting point for the evolution of the music.


Post Posted: July 14th 2005 9:22 pm
 
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Duel Of The Fates in AOTC always confused me as to what the theme represents. It's used primarily in the battle scenes in Episode I and III, but why was it used when Anakin is searching for his mother? It just feels out of place for music that was actually scored specifically for AOTC (except for the ending).


Post Posted: July 14th 2005 9:25 pm
 
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ETAndElliot4Ever wrote:
Duel Of The Fates in AOTC always confused me as to what the theme represents. It's used primarily in the battle scenes in Episode I and III, but why was it used when Anakin is searching for his mother? It just feels out of place for music that was actually scored specifically for AOTC (except for the ending).


Yes. That was a very poor place to put Duel of the Fates in II. I never understood it. I honestly believe paying John to rescore parts of the PT would be millions well spent, as some of the music placement in the films, espcially in Clones, is embarassing.


Post Posted: July 14th 2005 10:02 pm
 

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I would've assumed they would've cut in "Duel of the Fates" into the ORIGINAL version of the Dooku vs. Anakin duel (which was rumoured to be alot longer than what was show in the final cut) but I guess, because that portion of the movie was sliced up to nothing - then the yoda thing got dropped in...it was a case of "well we have to have it put in there, lets slap it in...er....this montage scene"

I guess it could represent Anakin's brooding anger (getting ready to f-up the Sandpeople) but because the actual "killing" wasn't shown or cut out, then it's pretty pointless...

...some nice transitional or travel music could've been cut in there just fine, and maybe cut the Anakin v Dooku duel with a tad more pace...and pop duel of the fates in there....

Who knows what they were thinking.

As has been previously mentioned, AOTC is a big mess of a botched score opportunity....


Post Posted: July 14th 2005 10:54 pm
 
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Anakin's swoop ride could have benefited from something similar to when Luke returns to the burning homestead in ANH. In fact, the track "Burning Homestead" works perfectly with the scene until about a minute in.

As for the end duel, one of the worst editing jobs in the film...Duel Of The Fates could have definitely worked, but not fully until Yoda joins the fight. The short fanfare that plays when Obi-Wan and Anakin arrive at the hangar could provide a perfect segue into Duel Of The Fates or be replaced althogether. But that'll never happen.

In retrospect, TPM and ROTS have their own themes for the end duels, but AOTC has nothing. Nothing to distinguish it from the others for the most part.


Post Posted: July 14th 2005 11:14 pm
 

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It's prolly because the AOTC Duel/s have absolutely no climax....they build and build and build until Yoda turns up, then it's all comicy-saber-duelling then Dooku escapes and you're left with a "what the?" at the end of it...(because after a 3rd of 4th viewing, the whole "yoda is fighting with a lightsaber" OMG!!!!11111oneONE! has worn off...)

_____


As a side note, the two "Yoda" duels both end on sour notes...with neither participant "winning" or "ending" the duel. Dooku runs off in the AOTC duel, then Yoda runs off in the ROTS duel. It seems the only guy who can Finish a saber fight, is either Obi-Wan or Anakin. Luke can't "win" one without quitting or running away...the only dude who actually "wins" a duel, is Obi-Wan in ROTS....


Post Posted: July 16th 2005 6:42 pm
 
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Biggs wrote:

As a side note, the two "Yoda" duels both end on sour notes...with neither participant "winning" or "ending" the duel. Dooku runs off in the AOTC duel, then Yoda runs off in the ROTS duel. It seems the only guy who can Finish a saber fight, is either Obi-Wan or Anakin. Luke can't "win" one without quitting or running away...the only dude who actually "wins" a duel, is Obi-Wan in ROTS....


Dooku was getting his ass handed to him. He basically cheated.


Post Posted: July 16th 2005 6:46 pm
 
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Biggs wrote:
the only dude who actually "wins" a duel, is Obi-Wan in ROTS....


Vader in ANH
Vader in ESB
Luke in ROTJ


Post Posted: July 16th 2005 7:41 pm
 
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Add Obi-Wan in TPM to that list.


Post Posted: July 17th 2005 12:29 pm
 
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Was Burtt responsible for the re-edit of the music in the Droid Factory scene? Why didn't they just use the track JW made, which was pretty eerie and nasty? That music they used for all the commercials (and is briefly in the film when Anakin's saber is destroyed in the factory) kicks ass, why wasn't that used more?


Post Posted: July 17th 2005 1:00 pm
 
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I remember reading somewhere that the music for that entire scene was changed because the C-3PO/droids bits were added later on and the track no longer fit with the scene.


Post Posted: July 17th 2005 3:45 pm
 
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The ENTIRE scene was added later on.

I don't even want to think about it. It's such a mess.


Post Posted: July 18th 2005 12:45 pm
 
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CoGro wrote:
The ENTIRE scene was added later on.

I don't even want to think about it. It's such a mess.


The droid factory scene is fun and all, but in a movie in which so much story was packed into 2.5 hours, that seems like a ginormous waste of 6 mins of screentime.


Post Posted: August 16th 2005 10:47 pm
 
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I cringe everytime I see that thing flying around the droid factory with Threepio hanging off the edge.


As do I.


As for Episode III, I really thought that the Force Theme version when Obi-Wan is leaving for Utapau is the best compilation of the saga.


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i wish the soundtrack had included the music that played at the end of the trailer as anakin is pushing obi-wan to the ground...the same music that plays during the crash landing scene in the movie...


Post Posted: September 21st 2005 7:33 pm
 
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That's from Episode I when the droid ship gets destroyed. I think it's on both the official soundtrack as well as the Ultimate Edition but I don't remember.


Post Posted: September 23rd 2005 6:55 pm
 
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It's on the UE, disc 2, track 28 "The Tide Turns/The Death of Darth Maul".


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