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Post Posted: November 8th 2005 2:42 am
 
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The end battle in AOTC is probably fine for your average fan or moviegoer. But how can anyone who listens to the films' scores watch it without cringing? Every time there's a shitty transition between cues they (Burtt) obviously tried to cover it up with sfx. Jango's decapitation with the random drumroll is the worst musical moment in all of the films.


Post Posted: November 8th 2005 8:28 am
 

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Manny,

In defense of GL and the love story in Clones, Padme gives that same look of wanting Anakin during the fireplace scene. She just dimisses her feelings in that same scene.

Personally, I'm not a fan of the family scenes. I prefer the Extended Arrival of Naboo deleted scene. It does the same thing that the family scenes do but it's Padme's commenting on herself and what she wants which I find important.


Post Posted: November 8th 2005 10:52 am
 
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But if you add the family scenes to the actual film in AOTC, you get more emotion from it all when you see her mom and dad walking with padme's body in Sith. It brings it all full circle IMO. Why else show them in Sith if they had no other part in any of the PT movies.


Post Posted: November 8th 2005 11:38 am
 

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hypertext,

You're right. I think my main problem with the family scenes is that they seem un-Star Wars like. I have no idea what that means but when I watch the scenes, they seem very WB to me.

Plus, this line: "Our relationship is strictly professional" just irks me. How many times have we heard this line in a romance story?

Again, it would be interesting to see a different cut of Episode II where Lucas cut the droid factory sequence to nothing, take out 3P0 and R2 in the arena battle, then add the family scenes back in. I'm curious as to how it would play.

By the way, it would also be interesting to see a cut of Episode III with "Plot to Destroy the Jedi" cut in right before Anakin gets appointed to the Council. I like the scene better than what's in the film. Mace and the other Jedi should've sensed early about a plot against the Jedi.


Post Posted: November 8th 2005 11:51 am
 
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Well after seeing it on the AOTC DVD and the extremely brief cameo in ROTS, I have to say screw the family scene. You really get nothing from it except the fact that Padme...has a family. And that whole Padme family "subplot" goes nowhere because they just leave. Am I wrong?


Post Posted: November 8th 2005 12:50 pm
 
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The only reason I can see for having the family is to build on character depth. If you see Padme's family you see that she does have a soft side and that she does love them and that she loves anakin as well. But if you don't show that, then don't show the fam at the funeral, show her mourning supporters or something.


Post Posted: November 8th 2005 4:25 pm
 
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MannyOrtez wrote:

Doesn't make it less of an atrocity, does it?



Don't really know what you mean by that. However regarding the tracked music it's not our decision on what music should go where. It's up to Lucas. We don't have to agree with it and if we don't like it we don't don't have to buy the soundtracks if they do end up releasing a 2-disc "Ultimate Edition" for AOTC and ROTS which I'm sure they will eventually.

Whenever they do end up releasing the 2-disc set for AOTC and ROTS I'll buy them in a heart beat regardless if they're "Ultimate Editions" or not because I am buying them for the unreleased music.


Post Posted: November 8th 2005 7:18 pm
 
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Jordan wrote:
Personally, I'm not a fan of the family scenes. I prefer the Extended Arrival of Naboo deleted scene. It does the same thing that the family scenes do but it's Padme's commenting on herself and what she wants which I find important.


Fair enough. I agree with you, that extended scene would've worked. It really does lay out what you need to know, that there is conflict within Padme, and I don't feel the movie as its cut or Portman do a great job with expressing that until the end of the movie.

ETAndElliot4ever wrote:
The end battle in AOTC is probably fine for your average fan or moviegoer.


Well put. It's a shame they didn't fix it for DVD. Lucas can't be pleased with it, I just refuse to believe he could.

Raveers wrote:
However regarding the tracked music it's not our decision on what music should go where. It's up to Lucas.


I meant that the fact that there was no music scored for the end battle itself is a huge atrocity, and then additionally, the tracked music they chose was horrible itself. As an editing exercise, I cut together Duel of the Fates and the Force theme in a few places and it worked beautifully, granted, I had to remove the 3PO stuff to make it work, but the scene went from a cool, exciting, ableit clunky, action scene, to a very dramatic battle in a few hour's work. Why couldn't Lucas and Burtt have figured that out?

ETAndElliot4Ever wrote:
Well after seeing it on the AOTC DVD and the extremely brief cameo in ROTS, I have to say screw the family scene. You really get nothing from it except the fact that Padme...has a family. And that whole Padme family "subplot" goes nowhere because they just leave. Am I wrong?

Hmm, Jordan proposed a pretty good option to the family scenes. What is important about the family scene is not the backstory, it's seeing that Padme longs for Anakin and is torn. And as Jordan showed, the extended arrival scene would've accomplished that. The cut scene from the script of Padme revealing her feelings to 3PO would've accomplished that. Frankly, a shot as simple as Padme watching Anakin with a longing, conflicted expression on her face would've accomplished that. I just don't think Lucas went with any of the above. There are certainly moments where we see the love story from her POV, but in the script, it's more balanced and more believable.


Jordan wrote:
Plus, this line: "Our relationship is strictly professional" just irks me. How many times have we heard this line in a romance story?

Again, it would be interesting to see a different cut of Episode II where Lucas cut the droid factory sequence to nothing, take out 3P0 and R2 in the arena battle, then add the family scenes back in. I'm curious as to how it would play.


The line is cliched, but the love story is dealing with something that is fairy tale and mythical, that cliche fits a little bit, perhaps.

I really would like to see such a cut. I am not a proponent of Phantom Edits, so I shouldn't hold my breath, as I know Lucas will not recut AOTC, but I think the movie could've been cut together much better. I might do it sometime for fun, sort of like the Soviets who re-cut Birth of a Nation over and over, as a learning exercise, but I refuse to accept a cut that's not Lucas. (On a side note, one change I would like to see the effect of is to take the picnic scene and place it before the kiss on the balcony scene. It just makes sense to me that some rolling in the grass and its accompanying sexual tension leads to a kiss, versus the other way around.)


Post Posted: November 8th 2005 8:10 pm
 

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Manny,

Thanks. You're the first to ever agree with me on the Extended Arrival of Naboo scene. It does work and I bet anything the reason why Lucas cut it was because when Padme states, "Actually, I'd hoped to have a family of my own by now", he probably felt that that was too much foreboding.

I had also forgot about the 3P0 and Padme scene in the garage. That could've worked too.

Again, as much as I love Clones and as much as Portman shows at times that she is attracted to him and cares for him in a way, the cut could've been better. And the painful thing about it is that we can see it easily in the film now.

For starters, shorten Obi-Wan trying to figure out where Kamino is...make it quicker. Put the Extended Arrival of Naboo in. Reverse the order as Manny suggested with the Kissing Scene and the Picnic scene, shorten drastically the droid factory sequence to something more dramatic, faster, and frightening, and cut R2 and 3P0 from the Arena Battle and rescore the Arena Battle and you have yourself a very great film.

As it stands, Clones is just a good, solid Star Wars film. And I'm with you Manny. The Lucas cut is the only one I'll accept because he has all the elements that nobody would ever get. So, if he does decide to recut it, he could look at it all...not with what's on the DVD.

It's not nearly as tights as Episode I and Episode III. Everything in Episode III that was deleted needed to go.


Post Posted: November 8th 2005 8:19 pm
 
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Jordan wrote:
Manny,

Thanks. You're the first to ever agree with me on the Extended Arrival of Naboo scene. It does work and I bet anything the reason why Lucas cut it was because when Padme states, "Actually, I'd hoped to have a family of my own by now", he probably felt that that was too much foreboding.


I agree 100%, everytime I watch that deleted scene, I get to that line and think "Lucas cut all this because of that..."


Jordan wrote:
As it stands, Clones is just a good, solid Star Wars film.

It's not nearly as tights as Episode I and Episode III. Everything in Episode III that was deleted needed to go.


I think we have the exact same view of EII and I think you said it much better than I could've.

It's interesting you bring up EI, which has sort of become the forgotten film as EIII has come out. For all the hatred and bashing of Episode I, when I go back and watch Phantom Menace now, I can't help but think that its just a fundamentally sound, good, textbook movie. No, it's not Empire Strikes Back or Revenge of the Sith, but like Episode II, it's a good solid Star Wars film, and in the case of Phantom Menace, I think it lives up to its potential much better than Attack of the Clones.


Post Posted: November 8th 2005 8:31 pm
 

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Exactly, Manny.

Yesterday, I watched the Saga in one sitting and as I was watching Episode I, I realized(or forgot) how solld the film was. I mean, the only thing I would change in Episode I is the Planet Core sequence. Either Jar Jar would actually lead them through it or shorten it to where we see the sub traveling a bit and then they would pop to the surface. That's really the only thing about Episode I would change.

It was when I was on my journey yesterday that I truly realized the missed opportunity of Clones. It's still my 3rd favorite Star Wars film(even beating Empire) but it's the worse edited of the six films by far. It suffers just as the Two Towers theatrical and EE suffers.

And it's so frustrating because, for me, I think Natalie and Hayden are solid but Burtt didn't help him out and it's clear that Lucas ran out of time with Clones. The Arena Battle, the 3rd act score, and the Droid Factory sequence are evidence of that.

I too believe that Lucas may not be totally satisfied with Clones, at least with the score. We have no idea how it feels about it but my gut tells me he might not be totally satisified with the film.

I'm sure he has no such feelings about Sith and he shouldn't from where I stand. Sure, I would extend a few scenes already in the film but the film works great as is now.


Post Posted: November 8th 2005 8:36 pm
 
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Jordan wrote:
Exactly, Manny.

Yesterday, I watched the Saga in one sitting and as I was watching Episode I, I realized(or forgot) how solld the film was. I mean, the only thing I would change in Episode I is the Planet Core sequence. Either Jar Jar would actually lead them through it or shorten it to where we see the sub traveling a bit and then they would pop to the surface. That's really the only thing about Episode I would change.


Concur, I am a strong believer in the "Page 17" idea, that you need to reach the turning point of the story by rougly page 17. In Star Wars movies, I think that it's more of a "page 17-25", as evidenced in ROTS, the "page 17" is when Anakin learns that Padme is pregnant (25 or so mins in). That is the real story, that is the catalyst, everything before it was just setting up plot and showing relationships btwn Obi & Anakin (well, more realistically it was just plain good old fashioned action, but we'll justify it that way).

We should meet Anakin in TPM probably at about 20 or so minutes in, as is, I think it's probably 35? I haven't watched TPM for a couple months, I'll have to go back and look. Nonetheless, I concur that it is a very very solid film.


Post Posted: November 8th 2005 8:45 pm
 
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There is several main points regarding Padme that should never have been cut from AotC or were totally lost in translation;

1) Arrival on Coruscant

On a story level, we know that Padme is in danger from her stance on the Military Creation Act.

On a personal level, this is the first scene where we see her realising that 'life is short.' It is the first time she realises she is in huge danger. In TPM she more naive and willing to allow that to happen, but now she is in her 20's and looking for more. Now that Padme has let her guard down, we need to know what she wants...


2) Arrival On Naboo (Ext.)

This is the first time we actually learn Padme's most inner wants for herself - away from public office. Both her wont of family and children, and her readiness to have both makes a huge impact on Anakin who is secretly in love with her. The pairing with Anakin begins to form a basis for a relationship with him that is neither stable nor appropriate (for both Anakin and Padme).

3) Family Scene

Now that Anakin knows Padme's wants for life, Padme realises this in her scenes with her family. It is here that we see people who actually KNOW Padme - mum, dad, sister, kids etc. There is no formal pretense or political correctness. Padme has been fairly cold until this point and now she realises that Anakin is the one for her. A needed scene for this realisation to be believable - mainly because it is her family who knows her best thats makes it all believable.

(On a side note, this scene also gives Anakin a father figure other than Anakin (another cut scene), and introduces him to a family life he has never know.)

4) Naboo Fireplace

Easy one - Padme is coping with her feelings for Anakin. I wish this whole scene was shown unedited, because the missing lines made the scene in the movie suck badly.

5) Arena Scene

Okay, so she is a cold, heartless bitch who escapes death but really wants a family an dis overdue for one, has fallen in love with her Jedi protector who's moves she has rejected, and again is about to die without fulfilling anything she really wants - next moment she is married...1+2+3+4 = 5.


Post Posted: November 8th 2005 8:47 pm
 

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We meet Anakin in Episode I at the 35 minute mark. But with Episode I, you could forgive it a bit because it really is the grande intro to the Saga. It took a bit to get the pieces in place. But, had he cut down or cut out the Planet Core sequence, we'd gotten to Anakin quicker.


Post Posted: November 8th 2005 8:48 pm
 
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I don't think TPM was a grand intro...if the Clone Wars battle had of started in TPM, it would have been fucking fantastic. ;)


Post Posted: November 8th 2005 8:50 pm
 

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Interesting points Terian. Not so sure about the Fireplace Scene. I thought that scene worked extremely well, even with Anakin's opening over poetic dialogue.

I think you get a great sense about what Padme is going through in that scene. Her words and the inflection in her voice says one thing but her body language and clothes say another.


Post Posted: November 8th 2005 8:55 pm
 

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Also, I've always had the firm belief that Padme technically wasn't in love with Anakin by the end of Clones.

She cares about him and is attracted to him. And things really change for her when she witnesses Anakin at his lowest moment on Tatoonie. For me, in that moment in the garage, I felt that she decided then to look after him. She basically takes his mother's place in that scene.

When faced with death, I believe she gave into her attraction and the connection she has with him through his mother and grabs hold of that. She marries him at the end because she does realize that things in the galaxy are about to get worse and this might be my only shot.

It is in the years between Episode II and Episode III that she truly falls passionately in love with Anakin.

Again, my view. I'm sure it'll be shot down as wishful thinking.


Post Posted: November 8th 2005 11:30 pm
 
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Ternian wrote:
There is several main points regarding Padme that should never have been cut from AotC or were totally lost in translation;
4) Naboo Fireplace

Easy one - Padme is coping with her feelings for Anakin. I wish this whole scene was shown unedited, because the missing lines made the scene in the movie suck badly.


I think you and I share a very similar view on Padme not just in AOTC but the whole saga, so I share your sentiments a lot. However, I really enjoyed the fireplace scene. I never really understood the whole "the dialogue is cheesy" stuff, well no shit, people say cheesy ass shit when in love, especially if they are 18. I thought Portman and Christensen both did good jobs with this scene. But I do like your assesments otherwise.


Jordan wrote:
She cares about him and is attracted to him. And things really change for her when she witnesses Anakin at his lowest moment on Tatoonie. For me, in that moment in the garage, I felt that she decided then to look after him. She basically takes his mother's place in that scene.

Yes, this and the scene where Anakin leaves to find his mother are two of the best in the film, maybe two of the best in saga. And you can really buy that Padme cares for him in these scenes, now that doesn't necessarily translate to romance, but I like what you brought up the kind of mother theme here, there's a little bit of Oedipus in Anakin methinks. Particularly in AOTC, that's one of the best aspects of the film.

Ternian wrote:
I don't think TPM was a grand intro...if the Clone Wars battle had of started in TPM, it would have been fucking fantastic.

Oh, come on, when TPM came out I'm sure it looked like a grand intro to you. Does it make a difference whether its technically the Clone Wars or not? The end battle in TPM, excusing the goofy Jar Jar stuff, is just as kick ass as any action scene in any other Star Wars. And the Maul-Obi-Qui stuff was so sick that Gillard never topped it again with the exception of a piece or two in The Duel. The idea that TPM wasn't "grand" enough seems either revisionist, or simply a product of expecting the Clone Wars right away.


Post Posted: November 9th 2005 6:16 am
 
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Quote:
I think you and I share a very similar view on Padme not just in AOTC but the whole saga, so I share your sentiments a lot. However, I really enjoyed the fireplace scene. I never really understood the whole "the dialogue is cheesy" stuff, well no shit, people say cheesy ass shit when in love, especially if they are 18. I thought Portman and Christensen both did good jobs with this scene. But I do like your assesments otherwise.


I think a lot of people would have been more happy with this scene, if half of the dialogue hadn't been cut and I, personally, would have liked to have seen an unedited version of this scene. It's not cheesy, more clunky in its movie form.


Quote:
Oh, come on, when TPM came out I'm sure it looked like a grand intro to you. Does it make a difference whether its technically the Clone Wars or not? The end battle in TPM, excusing the goofy Jar Jar stuff, is just as kick ass as any action scene in any other Star Wars. And the Maul-Obi-Qui stuff was so sick that Gillard never topped it again with the exception of a piece or two in The Duel. The idea that TPM wasn't "grand" enough seems either revisionist, or simply a product of expecting the Clone Wars right away.


TPM looked grand, but was very flat and uneventful for me. I honestly hated Darth Maul - I have never been a fan of him, and once AotC came out, I have always wondered why Dooku wasn't in TPM.

Looking back is even worse for me. TPM had too little plot and AotC had too much - and the sad thing is, a lot of AotC's plot should have reared its head in TPM - Count Dooku, the Separatists (excluding the trade factions), and the Loyalist Committee should all have been introduced in TPM.


Post Posted: November 9th 2005 11:06 am
 
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Ternian wrote:

TPM looked grand, but was very flat and uneventful for me. I honestly hated Darth Maul - I have never been a fan of him, and once AotC came out, I have always wondered why Dooku wasn't in TPM.

Looking back is even worse for me. TPM had too little plot and AotC had too much - and the sad thing is, a lot of AotC's plot should have reared its head in TPM - Count Dooku, the Separatists (excluding the trade factions), and the Loyalist Committee should all have been introduced in TPM.


I guess he could've had more plot in it, but I don't think its necessary. The first act should be more of a set up, and I think he was just trying to make it as fun and lighthearted as he could before all the darkness came. A more logical solution to me, in terms of the too much plot problem, was just to extend AOTC in length a little bit. Or cut our superflous parts, but either way, I'm very satisfied with the way TPM is.


Post Posted: November 9th 2005 3:16 pm
 
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TPM felt more like a prologue rather than the first episode to me.


Post Posted: November 9th 2005 8:24 pm
 
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Ternian wrote:
TPM felt more like a prologue rather than the first episode to me.


Perhaps in the sense of the Republic -> Empire plot (which you obviously favor), I can see you how could say that, but in Anakin's story, no, it certainly contains a lot of very important points there.


Post Posted: November 9th 2005 10:51 pm
 

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Ternian wrote:
TPM felt more like a prologue rather than the first episode to me.

MannyOrtez wrote:
Perhaps in the sense of the Republic -> Empire plot (which you obviously favor), I can see you how could say that, but in Anakin's story, no, it certainly contains a lot of very important points there.


TPM is to Star Wars as The Hobbitt is to Lord of the Rings


Post Posted: November 10th 2005 6:34 am
 
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Manny, if you take away all of the story of TPM, Star Wars still works well without it. I didn't really need to see any of for the next two episodes to work.


Post Posted: November 10th 2005 10:09 am
 
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Ternian wrote:
Manny, if you take away all of the story of TPM, Star Wars still works well without it. I didn't really need to see any of for the next two episodes to work.


You'd have to incorporate the stuff about Anakin and his mother in there. I guess you could argue ROTS works alone without it - though I doubt you would as you do not believe it's as good a movie as I do - and that would be a testament to ROTS. It is a very self contained film, despite the fact that everything in the two preceeding movies is very important to it, it ultimately has everything you need within it for Anakin's turn to make sense.

A little backstory doesn't hurt particularly if wrapped up in a good story, and the point is, TPM is still very exciting and worthwhile (IMO) despite being largely just exposition, backstory and setup.


Post Posted: November 11th 2005 6:57 am
 
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After watching, RotS, we didn't really need to know anything about Anakin's mother, to be honest. The story could work fine without it.


Post Posted: November 11th 2005 10:48 am
 
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Ternian wrote:
After watching, RotS, we didn't really need to know anything about Anakin's mother, to be honest. The story could work fine without it.


I guess I sort of agree Episode III does work alone in every way necessary, I just made a Hero's Journey thread (shameless plug), and I think that Anakin's obsession about Padme is well established enough in EIII to explain why he turns into a pitiful monster.

But EI and EII are there, and they do establish that Anakin has within him obsessive, controlling, unhealthy traits. And that it drives him to be a mass murderer. The Tusken Slaughter could've been enough to drive Anakin over to the Dark Side if Lucas wanted.

So, I do like the set up, but in the end I agree, EIII has all the elements within it so be effective.


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