It is currently October 20th 2018 7:18 am




 
Post Posted: December 22nd 2005 7:26 pm
 
Site Admin • Ternian@hotmail.com
User avatar

Join: October 31st 2003 7:00 am
Posts: 1456
I was reading one of the making of Books todays and i noticed that GL intended to put Sidious tell Anakin that he created Anakin by willing the Midichlorians into creating him.

Do you think this should have been left in RotS?


Post Posted: December 22nd 2005 10:29 pm
 

Join: February 29th 2004 6:19 am
Posts: 243
Leave it out.

Lucas deliberately set up the whole mystical birth deal to parallel Christ, it'd be pretty lame to turn around and fuck it up by giving a non-mythical explanation.

EDIT: Though I'd be kinda shoddy if I didnt point out that he gave somewhat of a non-mythical explanation to The Force by using the midichlorians in the first place.


Post Posted: December 22nd 2005 10:51 pm
 
User avatar

Join: June 20th 2004 7:19 pm
Posts: 330
I wasn't big on it either, but a lot of people still seem to believe it, as Palpatine almost hints at it during the opera conversation. It's far more wisely left ambigious.


Post Posted: December 23rd 2005 12:36 pm
 
User avatar

Join: February 22nd 2004 1:16 pm
Posts: 630
No. The scene as scripted was a complete retread of " I am your father" and deservedly got cut, IMO.

The concept is still there in the Opera scene, as Wrath Mania pointed out. GL decided to leave it deliberately vague and up to the audience.

However, he did state what he thinks about it in the Vanity Fair interview:

Quote:
Ultimately, I would say the Force itself created Anakin.


My personal view is that Sidious was lying, as evil characters are wont to do.


Post Posted: December 23rd 2005 12:41 pm
 
Bush Pilot
User avatar

Join: March 23rd 2005 3:46 pm
Posts: 1456
I'm kinda glad it's not in, though I think it would have been an interesting concept, Palpatine controlling absolutely everything. I wonder if GL had this idea years ago, and this is what the lead-up of midichlorians were for?


Post Posted: December 23rd 2005 4:42 pm
 
User avatar

Join: March 22nd 2005 11:53 pm
Posts: 1494
Location: Deep Space Nine
Personally, I don't like the entire "midichlorians to create life" plot. For starters, Qui-Gon mentions in Episode I that it's possible Anakin was concieved by the midichlorians. We hear nothing about this until ROTS, when Palpatine mentions the ability to create life with the midichlorians. There's clearly a direct connection there. It's established in Episode I from the perspective of the Jedi that it could be possible to create a living being through the Force. Its mention in Episode III leaves Anakin's origin a mystery and creates a level of distrust with the audience. Despite the cut of the "revelation", it remains unclear exactly how Anakin came to be, but with several theories on the table. It's like religion vs. science. And it just drives me nuts sometimes when I think of it. I guess I'm glad it was cut. Without a direct "I am your father", I just assume Anakin was a Christ-like birth.


Post Posted: December 23rd 2005 4:43 pm
 
User avatar

Join: June 20th 2004 7:19 pm
Posts: 330
Topeka wrote:
I'm kinda glad it's not in, though I think it would have been an interesting concept, Palpatine controlling absolutely everything. I wonder if GL had this idea years ago, and this is what the lead-up of midichlorians were for?


Nah, the plot of TPM really doesn't support the idea that Palpatine is omniscient. He just knows how to work all situations to his advantage.

I don't think Sidious was completely lying in the opera scene, however. I mean, he wasn't putting that tidbit in as if to make Anakin think he was created by the Sith; Anakin wasn't even aware Palpatine was a Sith at this point.

It's too far ambigious to lead to any clear answer, though. Contrast it with Palpatine talking of how Plagueis was killed by his apprentice, in which Ian dripped it with satisfaction and a certain sentimentality that made you know he was the apprentice.


Post Posted: December 23rd 2005 5:50 pm
 
Fat Bastard

Join: September 27th 2005 8:01 pm
Posts: 1548
Location: In hell
I'm glad they left it out. I for one don't like they idea he had thought of Palpatine creating Anakin. However just the force itself creating Anakin with out any outside interference I can see happening...


Post Posted: December 23rd 2005 6:01 pm
 

Join: March 20th 2005 4:43 pm
Posts: 21
Daglington wrote:
Though I'd be kinda shoddy if I didnt point out that he gave somewhat of a non-mythical explanation to The Force by using the midichlorians in the first place.


Y'know, that right there is something that's always bothered me since the initial Phantom Menace "backlash". I never got why so many people interpreted Qui-Gon's explanation on midichlorians as some "demystification" of the force. From opening night of Episode I, I've always seen the midichlorians as a "measuring stick" of how much potential force sensitivity there may be in a person. More specifically I saw it as merely a plot device to emphasize how "special" Anakin was.

Forgive the analogy, but I saw it sorta like Power Levels in Dragon Ball Z.

Right up until a small army of obsessive SW zealots started coming outta the woodwork boo hoo hoo-ing over the supposed demystification of the force, I never saw the midichlorians as anything more than a way for the character's to realize "this kid's more than he seems".

I mean it's all in the dialogue:

Qui-Gon: "Midichlorians are a microscopic lifeform that reside within all living cells and communicates with the Force."

"Without the midichlorians, life could not exist, and we would have no knowledge of the Force. They continually speak to you, telling you the will of the Force."


The Force and Midichlorians are always spoken of as completely separate entities. In order to "demystify" the force, you'd have to produce an explanation for its origins, specifically a scientific one. Well contrary to what the anti-prequel crowd has been telling themselves all these years, that has yet to happen. The midichlorians don't in any way shed light on what the force itself actually IS. At all. That's something that still remains very much a mystery. The midichlorians merely explain how the Jedi (and consequently the Sith) are able to tap into its power. It presents to the audience a physical means by which a force user communes with the force. The midichlorians are basically just the middlemen.

Now think back to aaaaaallll the moaning and groaning along the lines of "but, but, but.... there shouldn't BE an explanation of the force, especially a scientific one!!!" that we've all been subjected to since that fateful May of '99. Think of aaaaallll that expended fire and brimstone hurled at this minute detail of a story element (that basically amounts to window dressing) in a series of sci fi films. Such passion and hatred normally reserved for divorce settlements. Think of all that while mulling over my take on those rascally little symbiotic organisms.

P.S.
I hope that by starting this rant off by quoting Daglington I haven't given off the impression that I was lumping him in with the "obsessive zealots" because that wasn't my intention. Apologies in advance.

P.P.S.
Sorry if I went too far off topic, or if this belongs in another thread.

P.P.P.S.
I know I haven't posted here in quite some time, but I just checked my last post here and realized that not only did it include a P.S. and a P.P.S. but the P.S. in both posts are virtually identical. I'm just pointing out that yes, I'm noticing the pattern also. :monocle:


Post Posted: December 25th 2005 1:17 am
 
User avatar

Join: March 22nd 2005 11:53 pm
Posts: 1494
Location: Deep Space Nine
Maybe I just don't get Lucas' rationale, but why is it that Yoda says about the Force in ESB: "Life creates it, makes it grow", yet Qui-Gon and everyone seem to believe it's possible that the Force could create life in TPM? Or is it in fact that midichlorians have nothing to do with the Force besides telling Jedi about the Force. But if they speak to Jedi about the Force, they must be involved with the Force somehow, right? Otherwise, how would they be able to tell the Jedi the "will of the Force"?

Way too much thinking going on there. Lucas probably had good intentions, but I have to say midichlorians = shit idea.


Post Posted: December 25th 2005 6:19 am
 
Site Admin • Ternian@hotmail.com
User avatar

Join: October 31st 2003 7:00 am
Posts: 1456
Yeah, I think people would have understood it better if Lucas just said "the Force created him."

I found the way the Force was used in the PT was pretty pathetic.


Post Posted: December 25th 2005 12:36 pm
 

Join: May 3rd 2004 1:17 pm
Posts: 18
Just a couple of my idea's:

Ih TPM, Lucas had to show that the Jedi had a way to test the force sensibility of individulas, thus allowing them to know who could be a student and who couldn't. I saw this once on Wookiepedia:

"It should also be noted that the amount of midichlorians does not make a person naturally stronger in the force, but it does allow the person to reach high expectations. Anakin Skywalker had the highest number then any in the Jedi Order, yet that did not make him automatically the strongest Jedi who ever lived. It more or less meant that he had exceptionally high potential to be someone very strong in the Force."

I remember there was a list that had every major character in the movies count, so everyone has them, not everyone can use them.

As for Anakin's birth, I think he was created via the Force, as the prophecy predicted so he could bring balance, yet how it would come true was not clear. That is where the open ended way to achieve a goal comes into play. The jedi never timagined it would mean he would become a Sith, destroy them, and then destroy the Sith, only assuming he would show up and take care of business. The jedi also did not realize that to bring balance to the force, they needed to change their ways to, as Yoda eluded to in AOTC, they had become to sure of themselves.

The one thing about the Force that I always mention when I talk to my friends about ROTS and Padme's death, is that she was meant to die, nothing could stop it. That is why we see the vision of her giving birth a couple of different ways. As Anakin's destiny changed, who was there when she died also changed in his visions. She was not choosing not to live, it was her destiny to die during that birth, and the Force made sure that it happened. Thats what makes what happened in Empire so much stronger with Luke and his vision. He did not know if anyone would die, only that they would be hurt. Vader\Anakin knew his son would see these visions and come running. Yoda tried to warn him that emotion always clouds the future. If Luke did not show up, Liea and the gang still would have escaped Cloud City. Thas what makes Empire the strongerst of all the movies. Moreso now because of how well it works with how the prequels were done.

Terian is right though, for the common viewer, it is comfusing, and it could have been just called "the force" and common fans would get it easier, but it gives people like us that know every detail of all the movies, it gives us a reason to keep debating it well after it has had its run.


Post Posted: December 26th 2005 6:07 pm
 

Join: October 6th 2004 8:26 pm
Posts: 395
The midichlorians don't bother me much. ROTJ explicitly says that Force talent is a heriditary trait ("the Force is strong in my family"). The haters whine about it because they have such a narrow view of How Things Ought To Be.


Post Posted: December 26th 2005 6:46 pm
 
User avatar

Join: June 20th 2004 7:19 pm
Posts: 330
1. That list was bullshit.

2. Midichlorians don't create the force, they just allow a being to speak to it. I'm not sure why that fact is always mistaken, it's made pretty clear in TPM. It's really not that hard, though I could see how it could go over some peoples' heads.

3. I think if anything Star Wars makes the point you choose your destiny, not this "nothing could stop it" bullshit.


Post Posted: December 26th 2005 8:44 pm
 
User avatar

Join: March 22nd 2005 11:53 pm
Posts: 1494
Location: Deep Space Nine
Midichlorian count list? What the hell is he talking about?


Post Posted: December 26th 2005 11:13 pm
 
User avatar

Join: June 20th 2004 7:19 pm
Posts: 330
It was from SS.

Unless he really believed George Lucas sat down and worked out the math to figure out which characters were stronger than others.


Post Posted: December 26th 2005 11:53 pm
 

Join: October 6th 2004 8:26 pm
Posts: 395
Wrath Mania wrote:
It was from SS.

Unless he really believed George Lucas sat down and worked out the math to figure out which characters were stronger than others.

I do think we can make some educated guesses on these things though. It stands to reason pre-toasty Anakin would be a 10, while Yoda, Mace and Sidious are 9's, Qui-Gon was an 8, Obi-Wan is a 7.5, most other Jedi are probably 6's and 7's, etc.


Post Posted: December 27th 2005 1:05 am
 

Join: August 6th 2004 6:29 am
Posts: 857
thecolorsblend wrote:
The midichlorians don't bother me much. ROTJ explicitly says that Force talent is a heriditary trait ("the Force is strong in my family").


Actually, that's a fairly meaningless, if not flat-out incorrect, statement on Luke's part. What the PT shows us is that Force talent is NOT hereditary -- Jedi generally aren't allowed to have families, and there's never been any indication (other than in the EU) that any Jedi's mom, dad, uncle, grandma, etc. had any special ability to use the Force. Luke and Leia may have inherited their abilities, but that can just as easily be attributed to Anakin's "Chosen One" status being the exception.

Ultimately, "the haters whine about" the concept of midichlorians because it quantifies something that was more interesting left undefined. Instead of one's skill with the Force being something that was acquired through practice and study, it turns out that the most important aspect to becoming a Jedi is being born with the proper head start.


Post Posted: December 27th 2005 1:41 pm
 
User avatar

Join: June 20th 2004 7:19 pm
Posts: 330
This is a terrible sports-related cliche argument, but potential doesn't equal performance. Your studies and training still determine how far you go.

If Anakin was never found by the Jedi or turned out to be a uncaring padawan, he would never have reached his potential that the midichlorians indicated was possible.


Post Posted: December 28th 2005 7:33 pm
 

Join: October 6th 2004 8:26 pm
Posts: 395
Ayatollah Krispies wrote:
thecolorsblend wrote:
The midichlorians don't bother me much. ROTJ explicitly says that Force talent is a heriditary trait ("the Force is strong in my family").


Actually, that's a fairly meaningless, if not flat-out incorrect, statement on Luke's part. What the PT shows us is that Force talent is NOT hereditary -- Jedi generally aren't allowed to have families, and there's never been any indication (other than in the EU) that any Jedi's mom, dad, uncle, grandma, etc. had any special ability to use the Force. Luke and Leia may have inherited their abilities, but that can just as easily be attributed to Anakin's "Chosen One" status being the exception.

Jedi don't have families because Jedi are not allowed to have families. The one canon instance we know of where a Jedi had a family resulted in Jedi children. My point stands.

Ayatollah Krispies wrote:
Ultimately, "the haters whine about" the concept of midichlorians because it quantifies something that was more interesting left undefined. Instead of one's skill with the Force being something that was acquired through practice and study, it turns out that the most important aspect to becoming a Jedi is being born with the proper head start.

It didn't bother 90% of moviegoers. Personally I'm not losing my religion about midichlorians being a middleman between the Force and Jedi/Sith. Almost all of the Star Wars movies stress that a Jedi must hone his potential ("with time and training you will [understand]", "I have some training for you during your exile on Tatooine", "you must complete the training", etc). A brief conversation in TPM about midichlorians changes nothing unless your interpretation of the saga is too friggin rigid. Luke had the same basic Forcer potential in ANH as he did ROTJ, what makes the biggest difference is the ordeal he went through in between.


Post Posted: December 28th 2005 8:43 pm
 
User avatar

Join: February 22nd 2004 1:16 pm
Posts: 630
Personally, I was never bothered by the midichlorians. Like thecolorsblend, I always took that ROTJ exchange to mean that Force potential was hereditary.

"The Emperor knew, as I did, that if Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him."

Not that it counts, but even in pre-prequel EU, Force sensitivity was not something anyone could achieve just by study/practice. It was a trait you either had or not - and the trait ran in families.


Post Posted: December 29th 2005 1:53 am
 
User avatar

Join: October 12th 2004 9:34 pm
Posts: 2541
Location: Toronto, Canada
DoubleSith wrote:
Not that it counts, but even in pre-prequel EU, Force sensitivity was not something anyone could achieve just by study/practice. It was a trait you either had or not - and the trait ran in families.


Truth.

Therefore biological....therefore, midichlorian theories never bothered me...just added a name to something we already knew.

I feel like a portion of Star Wars fans are just that much smarter than the majority of you guys.


Post Posted: December 30th 2005 12:03 am
 
User avatar

Join: February 14th 2005 9:23 am
Posts: 259
Location: England
Darth Sidious: "I have waited al these years for you to fulfill your destiny... I arranged for your conception. I used the power of the Force to will the midichlorians to start the cell divisions that created you."

Anakin: "I don't believe you."

Darth Sidious: "Ahh, but you know it's true. When you clear your mind, you will sense the truth. You could almost think of me as your father."

Anakin: "That's impossible."

Darth Sidious: "Nevertheless, you must decide..."


- ROTS, rough draft, Jan 31 3004


I'm glad Lucas took all of that stuff out.

That same draft had Han Solo helping Yoda on Kashyyyk, which I was also glad to see axed.

However, another concept from this 55 page treatment which I find a little more interesting is the idea that Yoda kind of knew the Jedi were doomed.
It's not really discussed that much, but there was another Qui-Gon Jinn scene written for ROTS - in it, Yoda speaks with QGJ on Kashyyyk. "Yoda would like to know how the Jedi will be destroyed, but QGJ cannot say because the Force is out of balance." is all that is revealed in the Making of book.

But I think there are moments in TPM and AOTC which point to this "Yoda going through the motions, resigned to his fate" thing.
Not to mention the deleted Mace/Yoda discussion from AOTC where they pretty much spell out that the prophecy coming true entails the ascension of the Dark Side.
I was actually expecting this to come up in ROTS, it always seemed we were building up to this revelation - that maybe the head Jedi knew more than they were letting on.


Anyway, getting back to the midichlorians, I didn't really mind them that much.
It's hard to say, but at the end of the day they are just a Maguffin to facilitate the whole "Anakin is the Chosen One and we can prove it" thing.
Which in turn, kind of begs the question - did Anakin actually need to be a Chosen One, and did there need to be a Prophecy for the PT to work at all?
I can see why Lucas went that way with things, it did make a lot of things easier for himself when it came to certain character motivations and establishing drama.

ROTJ, in fact the whole of the OT of course, worked when Anakin was just a Jedi who had strayed from the path and was redeemed.
Now his journey is given more epic proportions because he was the subject of a mysterious, ancient prophecy.
I'm not sure whether that is a good or bad thing, but it works for me.
And, it seems to me, the whole quantative, tangible explanation of the Force - the midichlorians - was introduced just to enable this whole aspect to the story...


Post Posted: December 30th 2005 1:56 am
 

Join: August 6th 2004 6:29 am
Posts: 857
thecolorsblend wrote:
Jedi don't have families because Jedi are not allowed to have families. The one canon instance we know of where a Jedi had a family resulted in Jedi children. My point stands.


Sure, if you only look at it from one direction. Was Obi-Wan's father a Jedi? His brother maybe? His cousin? How about Qui-Gon? Mace? Yoda? ANY other Jedi in the movies? If Force sensitivity is inherited, why do Padawans have to be separated from their families as early as possible? Wouldn't their families be best suited to raise them?

Not to forget that "the one canon instance" you're talking about is someone who didn't have a father. Hardly supports your point. That one instance is, like I said, an exception.


Post Posted: December 30th 2005 7:51 am
 
User avatar

Join: December 23rd 2004 11:19 pm
Posts: 467
Location: Left side of right coast
I am so sick of hearing cannon thrown around like it matters a goddamn bit. GL leaves some things open for the audience to interpret, and in a way avoiding a "cannon". I love these discussions, and hearing others opinions. But god forbid those opinions don't mesh with someone elses and they get attitude and throw Cannon in your face.


Post Posted: December 30th 2005 2:29 pm
 

Join: March 20th 2005 4:43 pm
Posts: 21
Treadwell wrote:
Anyway, getting back to the midichlorians, I didn't really mind them that much.
It's hard to say, but at the end of the day they are just a Maguffin to facilitate the whole "Anakin is the Chosen One and we can prove it" thing.


Yep. That basically sums up the general point of my (long winded) post. :heavymetal:


Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
 



Jump to:  
cron




millenniumfalcon.com©
phpBB©