Hayden Christensen vs Sebastain Shaw in Jedi • Part II

[TheKenobi]

I detect the presence of some lying mother fuckers around these parts.

Regarding the welcome addition of Hayden as Anakin in ROTJ,

After watching TPM,AOTC, knowing the gist of ROTS, then the magnificent new version of the original trilogy ; I can only say this. After the 6 film build up to the climax when Anakin appears in glory, I cried. It was so fucking beautiful and perfect. And you lying mother fuckers know you got teary eyed as well. Don't be bitter and cynical. You know you "got it", and understood what Mr. Lucas was saying. And if you are too jaded , cynical, and self absorbed in body count films, and you didn't see and appreciate the fucking beauty of that moment, then FUCk your child hood.

And as far as the cunts talking about Anakin NOT looking at Ben, think outside the fucking box! He IS looking at Ben, he simply isn't visible yet to the naked eye. You can tell as he phases in , then abruptly turns his head away in embarassment at finally being redeemed in Ben and Yoda, AND Lukes eyes! Its fucking beautiful. God dammit.


Star Wars owns you.

[Projbalance]

Well now, that was one hell of a passionette response. Not sure I agree with the tone, but I do agree with some of the information. Anakin DOES indeed start out looking at Ben, but he turns to face camera much more quickley than Shaw did. I noticed the slightly embarresed look on hi face and found it kind of amusing and sad at the same time. It also looked, for a very brief moment, as if he was speaking. I don't think this was amatter of him supposing to have been speaking to Ben. In fact, I don't think it was really a planned shot. I cant say why I think this, but I think the shot of Hayden was pulled from something else and put in kind of on a whim. It would, in my mind anyway, explain why they didn't just do a full body replacement. There is enough background exposure before the image fades in that they could have cloned that and used it the work the ghost effect. Also, Hayden just doesnt seem like he's "in the moment", he doesnt really look like he's mentally and emotionally in the scene. I think GL just went, "Hey, I've got an idea for a shot, can we do it?" and someone at ILM found a shot from something having to do with EPII and voila!!

[Projbalance]

It's not uncommon for peope who feel strongly about a subject to become incensed and downright hostile towards people who don't share their passion. I can appreciate a strong feeling and a desire to back up an opinion. However, most people here tend to cite more observation and data to back up their opinions. It simply is not enough to say, "It doesnt look right" without being able to express what it is about it that does not look right. If there is a visual issue, then express your opinion. Is the lighting or color inconsistant? Does the image slide around in the frame? Is the frame rate out of sync? Are their visible crop marks? Things of that nature are welcomed and actually make people pay attention to your oinions because it gives them something to look into on their own. Just stating that you dont like it is not a very convincing argument, and a poor starting point to make your case. If you don't like it because it conflicts with your memory or attatchment to the film, that's understandable. But there is little reason or use in demonizing others who don't share your opinion if you have nothing more than your feelings to base those opinions on.

[derek]

stop sucking lucas' cock guys

[Projbalance]

Define the basis of your insult. You tell us exactly what this activity entails and we will decide if we are participating in it or not.

[VT-16]

So people who like these movies now suck Lucas-cock?

Gee, I guess people who like LOTR suck Jackson´s sweaty, hairy ballsack.

[kremzike]

Just to add one more number to the tally: I absolutely LOVE Hayden being at the end of ROTJ. Means so much more to see the Anakin Skywalker we've grown to know the most redeemed in The Force and returned to how he was before his turn to the dark side. Awesome. So glad the change was made.

[Lightivity]

Tony Montana: who IS that girl? Damn.

[robfett]

Tony Montana: who IS that girl? Damn.

Well it's obviously not Monica. My guess it's that one other girl that he sometimes uses... I think she's on the Sopranos right Tony?

[dans]

I didn't realize how many retards posted here. How can anyone actually like this change?

Don't worry Demodex you are not alone...this mb is fast becoming the "if you don't agree with us or GL then fu mb!"

Actually it's a message board for people who LIKE Star Wars, not one for those whose pastime is to belittle everything Lucas has done after 1983.

[red_lifesavers]

funny how no one seems to notice or care, that instead of inserting all of Hayden Christensen, Lucas only pasted on his head. That's Sebastian Shaw's body. look at the side by side images, it's obvious.

[foxbatkllr]

They have access to a change of wardrobe as a Jedi spirit. If they didn't, how else do you explain Obi-Wan getting a new outer robe when he became a spirit?

p.s. Anakin wore traditional robes at the end of TPM.

[red_lifesavers]

They have access to a change of wardrobe as a Jedi spirit. If they didn't, how else do you explain Obi-Wan getting a new outer robe when he became a spirit?

p.s. Anakin wore traditional robes at the end of TPM.

I like your explanation - clever!

Yes Anakin wore tan tunics - WHEN HE WAS 10. If that's their reason for it, then it should be Jake Lloyd at the end of ROTJ. And we woudl ALL love THAT wouldn't we!?!?!?!?

[Projbalance]

I've said it before, but I feel the need to re-iterate myself: If you don't like the change discuss WHY, and be specific and literate about it. Just saying, "It sucks." or, "I don't like it." is a fine statement of opinion, but it doesnt help us understand what it is about it you dont like. The idea of an open forum is to share thoughts so that all may achieve an understanding. If you don't understand something, and you approach things with an open mind, it's possible that someone here can help you understand it. It's also possible that, if you approach your statement with intelligence and present a clear and concise statement, that you may help people understand your position better. If all anyone is going to do is spout opinions without explanations as to why they feel the way they do, we're all just going to end up bashing heads and egos until someone locks out the thred.

Personally, I don't really care about the change at all. If I had to stand on either side of the fence, I'd be for it. My reason is I have no emotional attatchments to Sebastian Shaw in the role of Anakin. He was an actor who was hired for a couple of lines of dialouge and to be a face to represent the charector. In my opinion, he didnt really play a charector, because he didn't have to establish any of the charector traits or infuse the charector with any kind of life. We accepted him because there wasn't any reason not to accept him. It's like the old saying, "The only reason you know who you're daddy is, is because your momma told you." nd let us not forget that there WAS a large contingent of people who did NOT understand who the charecter was supposed to be when the movie was originally released.

If I can take it a step further, the whole reveal itself is kind of lack for emotional content, save for what the person watching brings to it. It's very difficult to feel so much for the redemption of Anakin because we don't know who he is, aside from the fact that he was Lukes father and he turned to the dark side. We don't know how or why or whatever else we would need to know in order to fully sympathise with the old man in the armor. In the scene, we empathise with Luke. It's his emotions we we key in on. We feel sad because he feels sad, not because we have any reason to care for Anakin. Up to that point we've just seen Vader kill people and be a badass. He had done nothing throught the course of the OT to make us give a good god damn about him in any way. At the very least the change gives us a connection to a charector, not just a representation of one. We get to se the face of someone we have spent some time with. After ROTS we'll have all the facts about what happend to Anakin, and then you can decide to empathise with him or not. But it makes the arc of the charector Hayden created complete. Yoda need not be replaced with his "younger" version becaue Yoda is Yoda. He's not a real anyway, so who cares if you see the puppet or not. Obi-Wan need not be replaced by Ewan because old Obi-Wan is an established charecter. By the end of ROTS we'll have seen his entire story arc, and he get's screen time in every film in the OT, so we know who he is and can easily accept the effect the passage of time has on him. It can be argued that the passage of time is jst as easy to accept with Anakin, and that may be true, but we don't see him until, what, the last five minutes of the movie? And then we see him for how long, like a minute perhaps? It makes more of an impact to have the actor we have had some experiance with be the last impression we have of the charector he played, and I think that's easy enough to go along with if you accept Vader and Anakin as two seperate entities.

That's just my opinion and my reasoning to back it up, however.

[harriscs]

I was going to buy the DVDs, but cancelled my order after finding out Lucas changed Boba Fett's voice and replaced Shaw's ghost with Hayden. I like the Special Editions' improved special effects and cleaned up look, and could tolerate Han shooting Greedo first, but the above I mentioned has gone too far. It's like taking the Wizard of Oz movie and replacing the actor portraying the Wizard behind the curtain in the end. Whether it makes sense to have the change or not, old vs. young Anakin, all these years I've seen and gained an emotional attachment seeing that old ghost of Anakin Skywalker in the end of ROTJ, and to ditch his ghost is disrespectful and even hurtful. To me, having a father who sometimes was downright mean and yet had a good side to him, who happened to die a couple years ago, I could relate seeing this aged Anakin becoming good in the end, like my father in his older years, and as a ghost finally joining his old friends...a very touching scene that Lucas should not have messed with. So that's my reason for not liking the change.

For those of you who do like or don't mind the change, perhaps you just don't have the same level of emotional attachment like those of us who dislike it. And how can anyone like Boba Fett's voice being changed, when the original voice sounded cool and mysterious? Another example where Lucas replaced an actor, even if it's just a voice, that I've grown to love all these years. I have the KBToys exclusive talking 12" Boba Fett, and now his voice is wrong, according to Lucas? It annoys me tremendously Lucas did that, to mess with everyone's favorite bounty hunter!

I'm hoping with all these grumblings that Lucas will reconsider some of these changes when he releases the next DVD set in the future, like he did by removing Luke's falling scream. So let all those who dislike the changes continue voicing their opinions, but I agree giving good reasons for your feelings helps the cause, not just name calling (although they're humorous to read).

[foxbatkllr]

boohoo.

And don't tell me I'm not as emotionally attached as you. I've been watching Star Wars since I was 2 years old. I knew all the dialogue by the age of 5 and Boba Fett was always my favorite character.

[harriscs]

boohoo.

And don't tell me I'm not as emotionally attached as you. I've been watching Star Wars since I was 2 years old. I knew all the dialogue by the age of 5 and Boba Fett was always my favorite character.

No, I'm specifically referring to one's emotional attachment to the original ghost scene with Shaw, nevermind Boba Fett. I stated why I liked the original ending so much, how seeing an aged father turn good just before dying, and then seeing him joining his old friends in the Jedi spirit world, was a very touching finale to the end. It's just odd now to see a "new" actor inserted into that scene, never to be the same again (for me anyway). You can belittle Shaw and justify the change all you want, but it won't change or *revise* how I felt everytime I saw that old ghost of Anakin.

So I'm with Agent Smith and others who dislike the change. Perhaps I'll change my mind after seeing ROTS, but for now, I think Lucas shouldn't have messed with the Jedi spirits scene. Even the new ending song introduced in the '97 Special Edition made that scene and the finale in general more of a tear jerker.

Oh well. I almost believe that there are Lucas employees posting in these threads, considering how adamant some favor these changes and defend them so much! But if that were true, then I'm posting in the right place, hopefully word will get back to George that maybe he's gone too far.

And I think some in here just enjoy debating or picking fights, whether they truly believe in what they're saying or not. That's all... :jfc:

[foxbatkllr]

No, I'm specifically referring to one's emotional attachment to the original ghost scene with Shaw, nevermind Boba Fett. I stated why I liked the original ending so much, how seeing an aged father turn good just before dying, and then seeing him joining his old friends in the Jedi spirit world, was a very touching finale to the end. It's just odd now to see a "new" actor inserted into that scene, never to be the same again (for me anyway). You can belittle Shaw and justify the change all you want, but it won't change or *revise* how I felt everytime I saw that old ghost of Anakin.

So I'm with Agent Smith and others who dislike the change. Perhaps I'll change my mind after seeing ROTS, but for now, I think Lucas shouldn't have messed with the Jedi spirits scene. Even the new ending song introduced in the '97 Special Edition made that scene and the finale in general more of a tear jerker.

Oh well. I almost believe that there are Lucas employees posting in these threads, considering how adamant some favor these changes and defend them so much! But if that were true, then I'm posting in the right place, hopefully word will get back to George that maybe he's gone too far.

And I think some in here just enjoy debating or picking fights, whether they truly believe in what they're saying or not. That's all... :jfc:

Well to me, Shaw always looked like a pretty pathetic Jedi. He looked fine in the Vader suit but everytime I saw him as a ghost, I thought he looked silly. He was fat and slow looking. The scene with the Young Anakin is much more emotional now because not only does he actually look like Anakin, but his body has been restored to how he was in his prime and when he was good.

Oh and btw I do work for Lucasfilm, so I'll be sure to notify George of your displeasure immediately.

[thecolorsblend]

I've said it before, but I feel the need to re-iterate myself: If you don't like the change discuss WHY, and be specific and literate about it. Just saying, "It sucks." or, "I don't like it." is a fine statement of opinion, but it doesnt help us understand what it is about it you dont like. The idea of an open forum is to share thoughts so that all may achieve an understanding. If you don't understand something, and you approach things with an open mind, it's possible that someone here can help you understand it. It's also possible that, if you approach your statement with intelligence and present a clear and concise statement, that you may help people understand your position better.

I'm obviously a new member and can't speak for everybody (or even ANYbody) on this. First, I'd like to establish my credentials a bit. I love Star Wars obviously. I love the prequels. When Episode III comes out, I'll be there with fucking bells on. The '97 SE's were indeed welcome in my book. You could argue that Greedo shooting first fits in better with the themes of violence covered in every other SW movie ever made as well as the rest of ANH. Even these newfangled 2004 DVDs absolutely rule with their 5.1 EX soundtracks and remastered video... except for "the Hayden switch". Now, I WANT to accept this change and find a way to like it, but so far my rational thoughts on the matter prevent me from doing so. Here's my position on this.

The official reason for it is that when Anakin gave in to the dark side, Anakin ceased to exist and Darth Vader was born. And that when a Jedi reappears as a ghost, he will take the last form he appeared in as a Jedi serving the good side of the Force. The textual evidence in ESB and ROTJ (Yoda and Obi-Wan's ghosts) supports that. Lucas has always said that by killing the Emperor, Anakin Skywalker (as an abstract) re-emerged and Darth Vader (Ibid) "died". Thus when Anakin's body expired, he did so as a Jedi Knight on the good side of the Force. Which means that it should still be Sebastian Shaw, not Hayden Christensen appearing on Yavin alongside Yoda and Obi-Wan. By Lucas' own logic and rules (as he's presented them), Anakin appearing in his younger form means that he died as a Sith Lord, which means the Force was not restored to balance, which pretty much completely nullifies the dramatic thrust of the prequel trilogy and nullifies the entire Star Wars saga! Yes, that one moment is that important! I love the changes and edits Lucas has made, but this is one that needed to not be made. It's a small thing that adds up to a lot (but I can overlook it because -- yes -- I'm that big a fan).

[dylan]

Lemme blow a big hole in your theory there - What if Anakin really does physically die in ROTS, only to be brought back to life Frankenstein-style?

[Projbalance]

You know MCD, that thought had passed through my mind once or twice before. What if bringing the force into balance is not about killing the Emporer (because by destroying the dark side wouldn't really help balance anything) but about his crossing over to the other side. If the Emperor prevents him from crossing over in any way, it would leave a huge gap in the force. And since he's such a badass Sith, it would take an equally badass Jedi to bring him low. Since they had pretty much wiped the Jedi out, there was little chance until Luke showed up on the scene.

[harriscs]

Lemme blow a big hole in your theory there - What if Anakin really does physically die in ROTS, only to be brought back to life Frankenstein-style?

What's retarded is if Anakin dies in ROTS, then why o' why does his young, beautiful ghost NOT appear until the end ROTJ?! And better yet, not until 2004 on DVD!?! If the justification is Anakin died as a young Jedi, then his ghost should've been around way before Vader dies, right? Oh, I'm sorry, the circle isn't complete yet. Yeah, whatever...

Stupid revisionist crap. What really happened is Lucas erased Shaw's eyebrows, and decided he couldn't make the ghost appear without eyebrows too, that would just look dumb. So hey, let's just insert Hayden!

Even erasing Shaw's eyebrows was unnecessary. So maybe, just maybe, his eyebrows grew back! If we can have sound in space, anything's possible in the Star Wars universe!

And Boba Fett's voice, maybe the clone kid grew up and didn't sound exactly like dear old dad Jango. Maybe he smoked too many menthols after his dad died and altered his voice. Who gives a crap, just leave it the way it was!

"No, I'm George, it's my movie, MY MOVIE...WAH!!!" (in the voice of a 5-year-old)

[thecolorsblend]

Lemme blow a big hole in your theory there - What if Anakin really does physically die in ROTS, only to be brought back to life Frankenstein-style?

That could do it. And maybe Yoda *wasn't* wrong (which I assumed) when he told Luke that the Dark Side truly does dominate you forever once you give in to it. That might explain why Anakin returned as Hayden. Perhaps the Dark Side tainted him too much for him to completely surrender it?

You do present an excellent theory though. What you say may very well be true. I don't know because I'm trying to avoid spoilers as much as possible ROTS.

[harriscs]

I'm obviously a new member and can't speak for everybody (or even ANYbody) on this. First, I'd like to establish my credentials a bit. I love Star Wars obviously. I love the prequels. When Episode III comes out, I'll be there with fucking bells on. The '97 SE's were indeed welcome in my book. You could argue that Greedo shooting first fits in better with the themes of violence covered in every other SW movie ever made as well as the rest of ANH. Even these newfangled 2004 DVDs absolutely rule with their 5.1 EX soundtracks and remastered video... except for "the Hayden switch". Now, I WANT to accept this change and find a way to like it, but so far my rational thoughts on the matter prevent me from doing so. Here's my position on this.

The official reason for it is that when Anakin gave in to the dark side, Anakin ceased to exist and Darth Vader was born. And that when a Jedi reappears as a ghost, he will take the last form he appeared in as a Jedi serving the good side of the Force. The textual evidence in ESB and ROTJ (Yoda and Obi-Wan's ghosts) supports that. Lucas has always said that by killing the Emperor, Anakin Skywalker (as an abstract) re-emerged and Darth Vader (Ibid) "died". Thus when Anakin's body expired, he did so as a Jedi Knight on the good side of the Force. Which means that it should still be Sebastian Shaw, not Hayden Christensen appearing on Yavin alongside Yoda and Obi-Wan. By Lucas' own logic and rules (as he's presented them), Anakin appearing in his younger form means that he died as a Sith Lord, which means the Force was not restored to balance, which pretty much completely nullifies the dramatic thrust of the prequel trilogy and nullifies the entire Star Wars saga! Yes, that one moment is that important! I love the changes and edits Lucas has made, but this is one that needed to not be made. It's a small thing that adds up to a lot (but I can overlook it because -- yes -- I'm that big a fan).
_________________
- Trent

BY THE WAY, VERY WELL SAID, TRENT (thecolorsblend)! Lucas contradicted himself - oops! What you said makes perfect sense, completely debunks everybody's justification of the Jedi spirits DVD change. Way to go!

Oh, and foxbatkllr, please pass this on to Lucas, since you work for him...

[foxbatkllr]

Actually I passed on what McDermd said to Lucas and he said "Yep, that's exactly what I had in mind."

Anakin dies in ROTS and along with it goes his spirit. However, his spirit is trapped within his body and only after he turns back to he good side may his spirit be released. The young, good Anakin spirit is what Luke felt as the "good" inside Darth Vader.

[Projbalance]

I wouldn't think anything young would feel good inside Darth Vader.

[royalguard96]

These weren't changes, they were corrections.

Boba Fett's voice has to be the same as Jango's. Anakin has to appear as the Hayden spirit. It's about what's right for the story, nothing more.

[thecolorsblend]

These weren't changes, they were corrections.

Boba Fett's voice has to be the same as Jango's. Anakin has to appear as the Hayden spirit. It's about what's right for the story, nothing more.

I completely agree about Boba Fett's voice. It absolutely needs to be the same as Jango's voice. Still, I'm struggle with getting my arms around the Hayden Switch. Why does Anakin's ghost *HAVE* to appear as Hayden? Give me some sort of philosophical analysis. My own is presented in a separate reply in this thread.

[dans]

Still, I'm struggle with getting my arms around the Hayden Switch. Why does Anakin's ghost *HAVE* to appear as Hayden? Give me some sort of philosophical analysis. My own is presented in a separate reply in this thread.

Look at it this way, Anakin died during his fight with Obi-Wan, physically and spiritually. (I don't read spoilers either so this is speculation at this point) Let's say that he was brought back by the dark side of the Force, his body was revived and filled with hatred. However, his good soul was trapped inside this vessel of rage, unable to actually become one with the Force as Yoda and Obi-Wan eventually do.

Years later, after finding his son, the good spirit inside him slowly came through, ultimately freeing himself as he tossed the Emperor down the shaft. At this point Anakin's young, pure spirit is in control of his aged and broken body. Unfortunately his suit (the only thing keeping him alive) was damaged and his life quickly started slipping away. He got one last look at his son, through his own eyes, before finally becoming one with the Force. When he appears to Luke with Yoda and Obi-Wan, his spirit is representative of his true, pure self.

While some can debate that he does some dark things while a young man, he was not entirely evil. The things he did because he felt they were right. When he is brought back from the dead as Darth Vader, however, he is truely evil.

This is how I see things at this point. I would imagine we will get a very similar answer shown to us in ROTS. I feel that this not only makes the change make perfect sense, but also makes the scene have more emotional impact than ever before.

[thecolorsblend]

Ooh, I have an idea (not to argue with you, just to present an alternate theory). Maybe Hayden's ghost appears because -- up to that point in life -- he'd been completely untained by the Dark Side (inasmuch as he may have flirted with it a little, but not actually summoned it and surrendered himself to it). Thus the last "pure" form Anakin Skywalker pre-Dark Side tainting is the Episode III era.

That's sort of what you said, but not totally the same. Kind of. It makes more sense in my head. Nobody ever said I was an articulate guy.

Anyway. I suppose we'll find out in Episode 3. But if either of us are right (or hell, if Lucas can use SOMEthing in Episode 3 to justify Ghostly Hayden), then love or hate the change, you'll HAVE to give Lucas mad props for having the balls to change such a signature Star Wars scene in the name of textual accuracy. For my money, this change is bigger than "Greedo shoots first" could ever be and look how much shit he took for that!

[dans]

I already give him mad props. He didn't just do it for no reason, the explanation will be in ROTS. That's why I think it's hilarious that all these bashers are pissing and moaning about it not making sense, there's an entire movie missing at this point!

[harriscs]

I already give him mad props. He didn't just do it for no reason, the explanation will be in ROTS. That's why I think it's hilarious that all these bashers are pissing and moaning about it not making sense, there's an entire movie missing at this point!

It doesn't matter what explanation Lucas gives in ROTS, he completely nullified all previous images (photos, books, etc.) and toys/action figures based on Anakin Skywalker as played by Shaw from the past 20+ years - how very selfish and inconsiderate of him!

What's ironic is if George hadn't put Hayden in ROTJ, nobody would be protesting about it, everyone would've continued accepting Shaw as the spirit of Anakin. Period.

And those of you who like these changes ARE in the minority. According to CNN's online poll:

Which version of the 'Star Wars' films do you prefer?

The originals 72% 11363 votes

Lucas' special editions 28% 4479 votes
Total: 15842 votes

See:http://edition.cnn.com/2004/SHOWBIZ/Movies/09/20/star.changes/

[thecolorsblend]

That poll is asking how you feel about the changes OVERALL vs. how you feel about the original OVERALL. It doesn't ask for specifics; some people might hate the "Greedo shoots first" change enough to vote for the original versions based on that alone.

I just checked the Digital Bits, who mentioned a Reuters report stating that about $115 million in sales were registered for the trilogy set. By my math (assuming an average cost of $50 per set), that figure amounts to 2.3 million copies of the trilogy set being sold ON OPENING DAY ALONE. That speaks a lot more loudly than any stupid poll on CNN ever could.

All that BS aside, I prefer the 2004 versions over the originals and my opinion is the only one I care about.

EDIT- BTW, why is it inconsiderate for Lucas to satisfy his artistic desires?

[dans]

It doesn't matter what explanation Lucas gives in ROTS, he completely nullified all previous images (photos, books, etc.) and toys/action figures based on Anakin Skywalker as played by Shaw from the past 20+ years - how very selfish and inconsiderate of him!

It doesn't nullify anything, it only dates them. That is what it looked like before everything was completed - this is what it looks like now.

[mebejedi]

"I thought he looked silly. He was fat and slow looking."

So a lanky and apparently less "slow looking" (?) Obi-wan looks better? Maybe I'm missing something here...

"What if bringing the force into balance is not about killing the Emporer (because by destroying the dark side wouldn't really help balance anything"

First of all, Lucas has stated over and over that balance is restored by killing the Emperor. That being said, the "Dark Side" of the Force is not destroyed - Anakin has simply eliminated the top two practitioners of the Dark Side.

Think of it this way - if all the Jedi and Sith are killed, does the Force cease to exist? Nope, there would simply be no one of the calber of the Jedi and Sith to use/misuse it. The "Dark Side" is simply the misuse of the Force. This is why Jedi and Sith are capable of the same powers - the only difference being which powers are used, and to what extent.

"A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack". The Force can be used for attack, and this is what the Sith do. It is the fundamental difference between the two, despite the fact that both users manipulate the Force.

"Anakin dies in ROTS and along with it goes his spirit. However, his spirit is trapped within his body and only after he turns back to he good side may his spirit be released. The young, good Anakin spirit is what Luke felt as the "good" inside Darth Vader."

So it is Anakin's "body" that commits these atrocities? LOL!

"These weren't changes, they were corrections."

That's utter bullshit, unless you've convinced yourself that Lucas just didn't have the technology to film a "younger Anakin Skywalker" when he made ROTJ. LOL!

"Boba Fett's voice has to be the same as Jango's."

If you want to ignore the whole nature-vs-nuture debate.

"While some can debate that he does some dark things while a young man, he was not entirely evil. The things he did because he felt they were right. When he is brought back from the dead as Darth Vader, however, he is truely evil."

I'm curious - was it his "body" or "spirit" that killed the Tuskens? Also, if he is "truly evil", doesn't this imply that there is no "good spirit" in him? Your terms blatantly contradict each other (not that this is your fault - these changes have wreaked havoc with Vader's original motivations.)

"Maybe Hayden's ghost appears because -- up to that point in life -- he'd been completely untained by the Dark Side (inasmuch as he may have flirted with it a little, but not actually summoned it and surrendered himself to it). Thus the last "pure" form Anakin Skywalker pre-Dark Side tainting is the Episode III era."

But he's not untainted. He "surrendered" to it in the Tusken massacre, unless you believe that was the "good spirit" in him.

"What's ironic is if George hadn't put Hayden in ROTJ, nobody would be protesting about it, everyone would've continued accepting Shaw as the spirit of Anakin. Period."

Agreed.

[dans]

"These weren't changes, they were corrections."

That's utter bullshit, unless you've convinced yourself that Lucas just didn't have the technology to film a "younger Anakin Skywalker" when he made ROTJ. LOL!

Well technically, he didn't.

At the time he did not know that he would get the opportunity to do Episodes I-III so he used the same actor that played the decaying Anakin inside the suit. That version worked great for the trilogy, not for a completed Saga. So now that he has actually completed his story he decided to tie them together in the most epic way.

Besides, even if he had wanted a younger actor back in 1983 it would have been retarded to use one. That actor would age twenty years and would be unable to play Anakin when he actually got around to making the first three films.

I still fail to see why people can argue and debate it back and forth countless times when the BIGGEST piece of the puzzle (and undoubtably the answer the naysayers are looking for, yet will still deny and bitch about after recieving it) is still seven months away.

[mebejedi]

"That version worked great for the trilogy, not for a completed Saga. So now that he has actually completed his story he decided to tie them together in the most epic way."

That's a bunch of contrived after-the-fact bullshit, and you know it. If you really want to know what Lucas was thinking...

In the rough draft Luke tells Leia that she is his sister during the celebration. Han and Leia leave uke alone; suddenly Ben appears in real flesh and blood and is soon followed by an old man, the good Skywalker. Yoda watches them celebrate.

In the revised rough draft, after Luke tells Leia and Han that he is Leia's brother, the couple leave him alone with Ben. Yoda suddenly appears as flesh and blood. His stay in the Netherworld has ben resolved since Vader has turned to the good side. Yoda has also been able to prevent Vader from becoming one with the orce. Luke's father appears, and they all join the celebration, except for Yoda, who watches them all from the side and lets out a great sigh.

In the second and revised second drafts only the shimmering images of Yoda and ben appear at the end of the film. The story concludes with Luke looking pensive, "his thoughts elsewhere, perhaps with the shimmering images of Ben and Yoda, or perhaps with someone else, somewhere else.

George Lucas: "I wanted Anakin, Ben and Yoda together again at the end of the film. That was the whole point because the first three films that I'm currently writing are about them"

THIS is what Lucas has to say on the subject, and notice that NOTHING of what you stated appears AT ALL. I dare you to find ONE single quote dated prior to this change that states otherwise. You won't find it, because it was never intended.

Anakin's "ghost" barely resembles his actual face seen moments before. Therefore, there was nothing preventing Lucas from using a younger "Anakin" if such was deemed necessary. Keep in mind, BTW, that Force ghosts were an afterthought at the end of filming ANH, long before Lucas had "written out his Saga".

"Besides, even if he had wanted a younger actor back in 1983 it would have been retarded to use one. That actor would age twenty years and would be unable to play Anakin when he actually got around to making the first three films."

Uhm, why would it be retarded? If it was always Lucas' intention to use a younger Anakin, and he was simply waiting for the technology to change "young Anakin" into the Anakin he wanted, then he would simply wait to change a "young Anakin" into another "young Anakin"!!! You just pointed out how fucking stupid and unintented this change is to begin with! ROTFLMFAO

"I still fail to see why people can argue and debate it back and forth countless times when the BIGGEST piece of the puzzle (and undoubtably the answer the naysayers are looking for, yet will still deny and bitch about after recieving it) is still seven months away."

Yet here you are, giving bullshit explanations that may or may not (and most likely don't) have any basis whatsoever in a film that is still seven months away. ROTFLMFAO.

Tell you what....be a real man, and take your own advice about debating this. THAT would be impressive.

[dans]

Wow. It must be fun up on that high horse. It's not worth explaining anything to someone who refuses to listen to reason.

Keep on hating the change (correction ) and spreading that hate across the internet, perhaps in your head you think that's gonna do something.

I'll just keep liking what I am a fan of - you know, the definition of being a fan.

[mebejedi]

In other words, you can't explain away the inconsistencies (without having to make shit up, that is). That's cool. It's what I've been saying all along.

BTW, I am a fan...of the original films. Been so for decades. It's a great feeling.

[Zion]

Look how dramatically the ending changes in those three drafts of ROTJ. Then add to that what you said about Lucas adding the force ghost idea after ANH. Even back then Lucas was changing his mind to fit the entire story. I don't see any difference with him changing it again, only this time it rounds out the whole saga.

The reason people hate the change so much is because it's not what they're used to. It's not the way they remember Star Wars. While I wholeheartily agree there is a place for the original versions up there on my shelf with my new DVD's, I like the fact that adding the Hayden ghost brings the two sagas together. And it does make sense. [insert obligatory "watch ROTS" and "old Ben ANH dialogue" explanation here]

[mebejedi]

"And it does make sense. [insert obligatory "watch ROTS" and "old Ben ANH dialogue" explanation here]"

In that regard, I assume you meant "I hope it makes sense", right?

Considering Lucas' penchant for eliminating exposition, I don't think you guys are going to get half the explanation you are hoping for.

[thecolorsblend]

What does how DVD's were sold have to do with anything? I hate the Hayden ghost shit, but I still bought the DVD's, just to have the movies on a better format.

The convenience of DVD's is a click of a button and I can pretend the abominable Jabba scene in ANH never existed.

Some other guy was trying to use a lame CNN poll to justify a point of view that majority of the public doesn't like special edition changes. My estimate of 2.5 million units sold does much to debunk that.

In any case, it's my belief that the general public cares only about STAR WARS and don't care much about original theatrical, original home video, '97 SE's, 2004 SE's, etc.

And I'll be the first to admit that a subject's popularity is no guarantee of it's quality... it does, however, allow you to point out the obvious and say a LOT of people like it. That's the only point I was trying to make.

[harriscs]

What does how DVD's were sold have to do with anything? I hate the Hayden ghost shit, but I still bought the DVD's, just to have the movies on a better format.

The convenience of DVD's is a click of a button and I can pretend the abominable Jabba scene in ANH never existed.

Some other guy was trying to use a lame CNN poll to justify a point of view that majority of the public doesn't like special edition changes. My estimate of 2.5 million units sold does much to debunk that.

In any case, it's my belief that the general public cares only about STAR WARS and don't care much about original theatrical, original home video, '97 SE's, 2004 SE's, etc.

And I'll be the first to admit that a subject's popularity is no guarantee of it's quality... it does, however, allow you to point out the obvious and say a LOT of people like it. That's the only point I was trying to make.
_________________
- Trent

You've debunked CNN's poll? No-o-o, not at all! I'm sure most people that bought the DVD set didn't know beforehand it was the special, SPECIAL, EXTRA SPECIAL edition! It only says "Star Wars Trilogy" in big letters on the box, so they have no idea what further changes Lucas has done, etc. So the CNN poll has nothing to do with you bringing up the sales figure. Just because something sells well doesn't mean anything. Look what happened with the Atari 2600 version of Pac-Man back in the '80s. They sold millions of it I believe, a record high at the time, and it was a piece of crap, the worst arcade-to-home translation of all time! So please rethink your logic, Trent. And just because you think the CNN poll is lame doesn't make it so. If anything, it's a quick snapshot showing that the majority of the public doesn't care for all of Lucas' changes.

But Trent, you originally wrote in your first post above that the Anakin spirit change IS important, and should've remained as Shaw. And I, Demodex, and many others agree with you, so I salute you. If George would've just cleaned up the originals, sharpened and brightened the colors, fixed the sabers in ANH, stuff like that, and NOT ALTERED SCENES (such as Greedo shoots first and Hayden is now the spirit of Anakin), I'm sure the majority of us would be happy, and that CNN poll would be showing a different result. The tie-in story to the poll specifically talks about five of Lucas' major changes, and asks the public do you prefer the originals to the special editions, and currently a whopping 72% prefer the originals! It has nothing to do with the DVD sales, period.

Again, see http://edition.cnn.com/2004/SHOWBIZ/Mov ... r.changes/

[foxbatkllr]

OMG AN INTRANET POLL!!!!

If a highly unscientific internet poll attached to an article that those who are unhappy to begin with are more likely to read is the only evidence you have that the "public" prefers the originals, then I pity you.

Internet polls are so unscientific and inaccurate it's ridiculous. First of all, people who are Star Wars fans are more likely to read the article and see the poll in the first place. John Q. Public probably won't even bother reading the article and thus wouldn't even see the poll. The poll doesn't draw from a random sample. If you have any experience in statistics, you'd understand why this is bad. Secondly, people have a tendency to take an interest in something when they are upset with it rather than when they are happy with it. That's why the "majority" is usually silent. Happy people keep their mouths shut. Sad people bitch and whine. They also seek out those who agree with them more actively than the happy people. I can guarantee you there are more "disgruntled" SW fans searching for articles that "prove" they are right than there are "pleased" SW fans doing the same thing. Thirdly, internet polls are subject to hacking and mass repeat voting.

[thecolorsblend]

OMG AN INTRANET POLL!!!!

If a highly unscientific internet poll attached to an article that those who are unhappy to begin with are more likely to read is the only evidence you have that the "public" prefers the originals, then I pity you.

Internet polls are so unscientific and inaccurate it's ridiculous. First of all, people who are Star Wars fans are more likely to read the article and see the poll in the first place. John Q. Public probably won't even bother reading the article and thus wouldn't even see the poll. The poll doesn't draw from a random sample. If you have any experience in statistics, you'd understand why this is bad. Secondly, people have a tendency to take an interest in something when they are upset with it rather than when they are happy with it. That's why the "majority" is usually silent. Happy people keep their mouths shut. Sad people bitch and whine. They also seek out those who agree with them more actively than the happy people. I can guarantee you there are more "disgruntled" SW fans searching for articles that "prove" they are right than there are "pleased" SW fans doing the same thing. Thirdly, internet polls are subject to hacking and mass repeat voting.

Wonderful. Couldn't have said it better myself. Personally, I think it's kind of sad that you even have to write that.

As for what harriscs wrote about me disapproving of the Hayden Switch, #1- why do you care what I think about it? #2- I've decided to see Episode III before I praise or condemn the edit/change/correction/whatever.

Further to my original post, short of taking the type of poll that foxbatkllr described, the best indication of public opinion regarding the trilogy is in it's sales performance. Literally, nothing else matters. If the public doesn't like something (New Coke), they tend to be pretty vocal about it. The only SE Haters I've encountered online are (or once were) Really Big Star Wars Fans. I'm telling you, the majority of the public probably doesn't care one way or the other as long as they get their trilogy boxed set. The real debate is occuring only among hardcore Star Wars fans.

One of the stronger arguments for the Special Editions is the lack of visual continuity from the prequel trilogy to the original trilogy. The space battles are nowhere near as busy or polished, there are no visual references from the Ep's IV-VI to the prequels (Coruscant, Hayden Ghost, etc.) and so forth. It'd be a jarring switch if you watch the saga sequentially.

That said, I'd buy the original trilogy if it was ever released.

[harriscs]

OMG AN INTRANET POLL!!!!

If a highly unscientific internet poll attached to an article that those who are unhappy to begin with are more likely to read is the only evidence you have that the "public" prefers the originals, then I pity you.

Internet polls are so unscientific and inaccurate it's ridiculous. First of all, people who are Star Wars fans are more likely to read the article and see the poll in the first place. John Q. Public probably won't even bother reading the article and thus wouldn't even see the poll. The poll doesn't draw from a random sample. If you have any experience in statistics, you'd understand why this is bad. Secondly, people have a tendency to take an interest in something when they are upset with it rather than when they are happy with it. That's why the "majority" is usually silent. Happy people keep their mouths shut. Sad people bitch and whine. They also seek out those who agree with them more actively than the happy people. I can guarantee you there are more "disgruntled" SW fans searching for articles that "prove" they are right than there are "pleased" SW fans doing the same thing. Thirdly, internet polls are subject to hacking and mass repeat voting.

Wonderful. Couldn't have said it better myself. Personally, I think it's kind of sad that you even have to write that.

As for what harriscs wrote about me disapproving of the Hayden Switch, #1- why do you care what I think about it? #2- I've decided to see Episode III before I praise or condemn the edit/change/correction/whatever.

Further to my original post, short of taking the type of poll that foxbatkllr described, the best indication of public opinion regarding the trilogy is in it's sales performance. Literally, nothing else matters. If the public doesn't like something (New Coke), they tend to be pretty vocal about it. The only SE Haters I've encountered online are (or once were) Really Big Star Wars Fans. I'm telling you, the majority of the public probably doesn't care one way or the other as long as they get their trilogy boxed set. The real debate is occuring only among hardcore Star Wars fans.

One of the stronger arguments for the Special Editions is the lack of visual continuity from the prequel trilogy to the original trilogy. The space battles are nowhere near as busy or polished, there are no visual references from the Ep's IV-VI to the prequels (Coruscant, Hayden Ghost, etc.) and so forth. It'd be a jarring switch if you watch the saga sequentially.

That said, I'd buy the original trilogy if it was ever released.

Oh foxbatkllr, of course I knew the CNN poll is unscientific, it clearly says "This QuickVote is not scientific and reflects the opinions of only those Internet users who have chosen to participate." So duh! I said it was a CNN online poll from the very beginning, and assumed it was understood as such. But still, it currently shows the following:

Which version of the 'Star Wars' films do you prefer?

The originals 72% 11363 votes

Lucas' special editions 28% 4479 votes
Total: 15842 votes

So that's a lot of votes FOR the originals, and I highly doubt CNN.com is susceptible to hacking! Do chuck it up for what it's worth, or dismiss it if you want, probably because you can't bear the idea that perhaps, just perhaps a majority dislikes Lucas' changes!

But can you or anyone show us a "scientific poll" where people just absolutely love these special editions? And don't point to how well the DVDs have sold shit, I mean a real poll. I'd love it if Lucas surveyed the public to see what they like and didn't like about his changes, and what else needs fixed (or left alone) before the next DVD release. I bet the majority would say Han should shoot Greedo first, Temura Morrison sucks as the voice of Boba Fett - change it back, and leave Shaw as the ghost of Anakin. Those are my 3 wishes anyway.

And Trent (aka thecolorsblend), YOU ALREADY CONDEMNED the ghost switch in your original post above, and I respected your logic behind it! But you're such a sad flip flopper now and frequently contradict yourself (i.e. "2.5 million units sold does much to debunk that" VS. "a subject's popularity is no guarantee of it's quality"), that no...I don't care what you think anymore.

Oh well...you can continue loving anything and everything Lucas does to the original trilogy, and continue attempting to shoot down those who don't. Perhaps he'll replace Ephont Mon with Jar Jar Binks in ROTJ next (because of Elephant Man's disease political correctness) and you'll love and justify that too!

[foxbatkllr]

That poll is shit. Pure shit. 15,000 votes is not that many for an internet poll and its not from a random sample. It's not hard to find 12,000 geeks that are searching the net for anti-Lucas material. Just because there's not an scientific poll available doesn't mean we have to accept the shitty unscientific poll as proof. If evidence is shit, it's shit. Just because its the only evidence doesn't mean its acceptable.

Oh, and you don't actually need to "hack" into CNN to vote more than once. It's called deleting cookies and its something most geeks know how to do. I don't have a very hard time imagining some fat fuck with nothing better to do than vote a thousand times because he's so pissed off at Lucas.

[harriscs]

That poll is shit. Pure shit. 15,000 votes is not that many for an internet poll and its not from a random sample. It's not hard to find 12,000 geeks that are searching the net for anti-Lucas material. Just because there's not an scientific poll available doesn't mean we have to accept the shitty unscientific poll as proof. If evidence is shit, it's shit. Just because its the only evidence doesn't mean its acceptable.

Oh, and you don't actually need to "hack" into CNN to vote more than once. It's called deleting cookies and its something most geeks know how to do. I don't have a very hard time imagining some fat fuck with nothing better to do than vote a thousand times because he's so pissed off at Lucas.

"HI, I'M foxbatkllr, AND I LIKE REPEATING MYSELF."
NOW IT'S YOUR TURN, thecolorsblend, GET THE LAST WORD IN AND YOU WIN THE DEBATE!

[thecolorsblend]

But can you or anyone show us a "scientific poll" where people just absolutely love these special editions? And don't point to how well the DVDs have sold shit, I mean a real poll. I'd love it if Lucas surveyed the public to see what they like and didn't like about his changes, and what else needs fixed (or left alone) before the next DVD release. I bet the majority would say Han should shoot Greedo first, Temura Morrison sucks as the voice of Boba Fett - change it back, and leave Shaw as the ghost of Anakin. Those are my 3 wishes anyway.

I don't think anybody's bothered to set up a scientific poll. Hell, I don't know if such a thing is even possible on the Internet.

And Trent (aka thecolorsblend), YOU ALREADY CONDEMNED the ghost switch in your original post above, and I respected your logic behind it! But you're such a sad flip flopper now and frequently contradict yourself (i.e. "2.5 million units sold does much to debunk that" VS. "a subject's popularity is no guarantee of it's quality"), that no...I don't care what you think anymore.

I'm not contradicting myself. I, at first, condemned the change because it does not seem to make sense based on what we've seen so far. A few opinions and theories I've read on this forum have made me decide to keep an open mind until Episode III is released. Is me waiting to judge a complete saga flip-flopping? Yeah, I guess it is, but if I end up approving or disapproving of the change, at least I've giving it some thought instead of dismissing it straight away.

As for the quality vs. sales thing you mention, my contention has been the public doesn't care about the various versions. But if they did, the overwhelming evidence is that they approve of modern day Star Wars. I'm judging by the money generated from the 1997 SE theatrical run (which was advertised as including changes), the financial success of the prequels and the big DVD sales so far. This isn't hard to understand.

Oh well...you can continue loving anything and everything Lucas does to the original trilogy, and continue attempting to shoot down those who don't.

I'm not shooting you down. Other people may be, but don't confuse me with them. So lose the attitude. I like the changes Lucas has made so far (withholding judgement on the Hayden Switch). Ultimately, that's all I care about. I'm not losing any sleep over you or anyone else not liking the changes.

[foxbatkllr]

That poll is shit. Pure shit. 15,000 votes is not that many for an internet poll and its not from a random sample. It's not hard to find 12,000 geeks that are searching the net for anti-Lucas material. Just because there's not an scientific poll available doesn't mean we have to accept the shitty unscientific poll as proof. If evidence is shit, it's shit. Just because its the only evidence doesn't mean its acceptable.

Oh, and you don't actually need to "hack" into CNN to vote more than once. It's called deleting cookies and its something most geeks know how to do. I don't have a very hard time imagining some fat fuck with nothing better to do than vote a thousand times because he's so pissed off at Lucas.

"HI, I'M foxbatkllr, AND I LIKE REPEATING MYSELF."
NOW IT'S YOUR TURN, thecolorsblend, GET THE LAST WORD IN AND YOU WIN THE DEBATE!

Yeah, because apparently when I said it the first time you didn't understand it. Sometimes the teacher needs to repeat things to kids with special needs.