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by **realmoffett** » February 27th 2005 9:40 pm

Got a question that I hope someone knows the answer to. As almost everyone knows, nobody knew what Vader's lines were in ESB when he told Luke he was his father. Not even the actors knew the true storyline.

With that being said, does anyone know if GL informed Guinness of the background story so he could act appropriatley during ANH? Or did he just tell Guinness "I want you to say the line this way" during his conversations with Luke about events we all know are now part of the storyline of the PT.

I mean, when OB1 says "Darth Vader betrayed and murdered your father" and other lines relating to the past, did Guinness actually think that was the actual storyline, that Vader and Luke's father were two seperate people? Or did GL inform Guinness of the actual storyline and just told him to keep it a secret?

Looking at ANH now, knowing what we know, Guinness sure looks like he is acting like he knew the true storyline and that Vader and Luke's father were the same person.

Maybe I'm just confused.

by **Jason@Star-Wars.net** » February 28th 2005 12:05 am

Lucas probably didn't know if he was going to be able to make Empire, so he probably didn't tell Guinness. It wasn't until it was a success that he knew he could do more and then that old idea came back to him.

by **Ayatollah Krispies** » February 28th 2005 12:12 am

Knowing what we know, watching Guinness now, it definitely looks as though he's trying to pass off a lie. But it can also look as though he's trying to tell Luke something that he knows will be unpleasant. So it's Lucas's good fortune that his performance can be read both ways.

I don't recall if it's been stated definitely anywhere that Lucas didn't come up with the father-son relationship until he was writing ESB, though I know that's definitely something some fans like to repeat mindlessly as if it were absolute fact. But I have to figure that Lucas left Vader alive at the end of ANH for a reason.

by **realmoffett** » February 28th 2005 12:15 am

Lucas probably didn't know if he was going to be able to make Empire, so he probably didn't tell Guinness. It wasn't until it was a success that he knew he could do more and then that old idea came back to him.

I know that GL wasn't sure if the others would be made. But I thought he still pretty much knew what the major plot points were of the background story. Are you saying that you think GL came up with the idea that Vader and Luke's father were two seperate people after ANH was made and he knew he was going to make the others?

by **realmoffett** » February 28th 2005 12:58 am

I hope in the next re-re-re-re-releases

of all the movies that GL will go more in depth on how and when certain ideas for the storyline came about and let us know who knew what when. I know I'm a goober, but this kinda stuff interests me.

by **VT-16** » February 28th 2005 4:17 am

He might have had several different storylines over the years while writing the first. I recall reading various different drafts and ideas concerning Anakin and who he was related to.

The backstory might have been a few notes to give background to the characters, and only after ANH would he have thought about expanding them into a full story.

by **Bandersnatch** » February 28th 2005 8:51 am

Lucas could very simply have given Guiness a note like "with apprehension," or something before he answers Luke's question "how did my father die?"

by **derek** » February 28th 2005 7:55 pm

that movie is too old im waitin for episode 3 its goning to rock

by **Bandersnatch** » February 28th 2005 8:25 pm

by **The3lanK** » March 6th 2005 4:42 am

I was under the imrpession that EpIV was always IV and that the backstory though not finalized was always there.

I seem to recall there always being some sort of the bad guy was hte good guys father or vice versa, but at what point in the timeline it was actually suposed to happen? who knows.

It might of bounced back and forth between the new and the old trilogy, never really confirmed anywhere but just an idea he had.

And then as he moved into the sequal he said yes, this is where its going to go.

So most likely guiness had no clue... but as so many things in this world, we can read whatever want into the mind of a human.

by **corellian77** » March 6th 2005 12:29 pm

Regarding Alec Guiness' performance in Ep IV, yes, I recently noticed the same thing... the way he rocks back and forth, with his eyes darting for a moment, leads the viewer to either believe he's about to tell Luke something he'd rather not, or he's about to give a very evasive, somewhat false answer to Luke's question about his father's fate.

As for Guiness actually knowing that Vader was Luke's father, I can't imagine this was the case. As others have said, I don't think Lucas himself was even sure of the direction the Vader character would take at that point in time. Even if he was, knowing that he probably wouldn't be able to do a sequel, I doubt Lucas intended to ever develop the father/son relationship, and therefore I don't think he would have ever informed Alec Guiness of this backstory. It would seem, therefore, that we just plain lucked out that Guiness' performance was so good that it was able to adapt to a changing storyline.

All that being said, I do recall seeing an interview with Lucas somewhere amongst the bonus material accompanying the 2004 OT DVD release. In it, Lucas states he always had the idea of making the core of the Star Wars story about a father turned bad and redeemed by his children. Just how well thought out this idea was during production of Ep. IV, however, is another story.

by **Mifune** » March 7th 2005 3:15 pm

I believe the original intention was for Vader to represent the "bad father" with Luke's father representing the "good father." What that means isn't so much biologically as it is in terms of influence over the characters. In the backstory, it is possible that Lucas' first instinct was to have Vader kill Luke's father and attempt to corrupt him. But, in the end, Lucas said he combined the two character models of the father and put them into one (Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker).

The end result of this combination makes for a more interesting story, with both Obi-Wan and Vader filling in the father roles. Both for each other, and for Luke.

by **Akron** » March 7th 2005 5:33 pm

corellian77 wrote:Regarding Alec Guiness' performance in Ep IV, yes, I recently noticed the same thing... the way he rocks back and forth, with his eyes darting for a moment, leads the viewer to either believe he's about to tell Luke something he'd rather not, or he's about to give a very evasive, somewhat false answer to Luke's question about his father's fate.

This is very evident. Personally, I don't think the full details of the story were penned down yet, however Lucas obviously had already clear ideas on the sequels - remember that he had already drafted the whole series anyway. Lucas did not want Guinness to act believable during that scene and wanted to leave things...suspicious...which could have been useful later on...and it did turn out that way!

by **relayer** » March 27th 2005 12:24 am

My feeling is GL didn't decide about Anakin = Vader until TESB. In the Ep IV original novelization, allegedly written by Lucas, when that scene comes, it goes like this:

"How," he asked slowly, "did my father die?"

Kenobi hesitated, and Luke sensed that the old man had no wish to talk about this particular matter. Unlike Owen Lars, however, Kenobi was unable to take refuge in a comfortable lie.

"He was betrayed and murdered," Kenobi declared solemnly, "by a very young Jedi named Darth Vader."

etc.

The way I read this, Kenobi is uncomfortable (as in the film) but definitely not lying (in the screwed-up, now non-continuity of the books); he's just uncomfortable because he's telling Luke something very important, and something he also feels guilty about (in the novel he does still blame himself for Vader's fall, Anakin or not.) But there could be another reading of it, in that what he tells Luke is an uncomfortable lie.

This is as good as place as any to mention that the original novelizations are still a continuity mess, last I heard. In my ROTJ book, you've got Vader referring to Obi-Wan as "Ben" on Endor to Luke, Ben saying Owen is his own brother, and that Vader didn't know that his wife was pregnant at all, and more. I think in ANH, Ben also mentions Emperors, plural.

Not that any of this ruins SW or anything. Guinness's line reading does work great in the film, and I think Owen's "that's what I'm afraid of" works even better in the later context.

by **JoeinAr** » April 11th 2005 2:53 pm

Akron wrote:
corellian77 wrote:Regarding Alec Guiness' performance in Ep IV, yes, I recently noticed the same thing... the way he rocks back and forth, with his eyes darting for a moment, leads the viewer to either believe he's about to tell Luke something he'd rather not, or he's about to give a very evasive, somewhat false answer to Luke's question about his father's fate.

This is very evident. Personally, I don't think the full details of the story were penned down yet, however Lucas obviously had already clear ideas on the sequels - remember that he had already drafted the whole series anyway. Lucas did not want Guinness to act believable during that scene and wanted to leave things...suspicious...which could have been useful later on...and it did turn out that way!

I guess its a question only Alec could answer, cause I would never believe George, but you have to admit those little nuances of Alec's perfromance are great, its one of the reason he's the only actor to be nominated for an acting award in all the Star Wars films.

by **Bandersnatch** » April 11th 2005 4:51 pm

What bacta said. Plus, the Jedi are "all but extinct," and there is no Jedi Order attempting to "unravel the mysteries of the Sith," etc.
Luke hasn't studied Jedi vs. Sith shit at this point, so he wouldn't know, and certainly wouldn't say "Darth? Holy fuck, man! That's a SITH NAME!!"

And, yes of course Lucas hadn't fully developed the story and all the characters yet.

by **Bandersnatch** » April 11th 2005 6:59 pm

You're right, Traiken. Only problem is, that would mean admitting that Lucas is not the lying sack of shit of the century...

Oh wait... maybe he's not?

:monocle:

by **corellian77** » April 12th 2005 10:31 pm

Neil S. Bulk wrote:Why is Obi-Wan hiding in the desert wearing Jedi robes? That's a lousy disguise. But wait, Uncle Owen also looks to be wearing Jedi robes, too! Or could it be they were wearing desert clothes? But somewhere along the line, all the Jedi started wearing desert garb as well! What's that about?

Neil

Oh my god! Two men are wearing beige/brown cloaks... what are the odds? It MUST be fuck up!

Or maybe it was 1976, Lucas had a shit budget, and he figured no one would really care enough to talk about it on the Internet 29 years later.

by **Bandersnatch** » April 13th 2005 6:08 am

And what the fuck are they doing speaking English? I mean, what are the odds that this exact language, one of the newest languages to develop on our own planet, evovled the exact same way in that far-off galaxy?

Lucas and Ben Burtt should have invented entirely new languages for all the characters, and show the whole thing in subtitles.

Damn you and your lack of imagination Lucas!!!! :monocle:

by **giftoflight** » April 23rd 2005 2:10 pm

Perhaps, Uncle Owen wears robes because that's the implied clothing of poor people. The Jedi wouldn't want to dress extravagant, for that would show too much materialism on their part, and likely be against their teachings, so they too choose the clothing of the poor.

The Jedi dress in such a way to remain humble. Or maybe George made a major screw up. Who cares, it's a great series.

Máire

by **Obi** » April 23rd 2005 7:19 pm

i have an idea, let's talk about plot holes in neil's favorite franchise, the much loved and eternal Star Trek Franchise. Klingons: how the hell did they become all crabby looking when they looked like my uncle in the Original Series?

translation: who gives a fuck on jedi clothes and darth vader being lucas' bully in high school.

by **Bandersnatch** » April 23rd 2005 7:43 pm

Why the hell does that gay "Enterprise" series look like some shit you'd see on tv today? The lighting, sound, sets, music and everything are made with the same old predictable and trendy "Stargate" or "Deep Six Nine" production sense.

You'd think they'd watch the original series, and then make this "Prequel" series look more retro or something.

At least Lucas "explains" the visuals of the Star Wars prequels with the idea that it's "before the dark times... before the Empire."

:monocle:

by **philmcknight** » May 24th 2005 9:21 pm

relayer wrote:My feeling is GL didn't decide about Anakin = Vader until TESB. In the Ep IV original novelization, allegedly written by Lucas=

the original star wars novel was ghostwritten by Max Allan Collins. He's currently writing the novels for the tv show CSI.

When it comes to the original novels, I thought it would be a great idea if they went through a special edition of sorts, i.e. revising all of them so they coincide with the PT.

by **cantina_patron** » May 24th 2005 9:25 pm

philmcknight wrote:
relayer wrote:My feeling is GL didn't decide about Anakin = Vader until TESB. In the Ep IV original novelization, allegedly written by Lucas=quote]

the original star wars novel was ghostwritten by Max Allan Collins. He's currently writing the novels for the tv show CSI.

When it comes to the original novels, I thought it would be a great idea if they went through a special edition of sorts, i.e. revising all of them so they coincide with the PT.

Yeah... like Owen being OBK's brother, etc.

by **Ayatollah Krispies** » May 25th 2005 12:01 am

philmcknight wrote:the original star wars novel was ghostwritten by Max Allan Collins. He's currently writing the novels for the tv show CSI.

The original Star Wars novel was ghostwritten by Alan Dean Foster, who also wrote Splinter of the Mind's Eye, The Approaching Storm, the story for Star Trek: The Motion Picture, and nothing ever to do with CSI.

by **CountBlah** » May 25th 2005 9:55 pm

Neil S. Bulk wrote:
bacta wrote:you're just a fucking retard

That's the typical reply when someone can't come back to a comment.

Now I'll let you chew on this one. Why is Obi-Wan hiding in the desert wearing Jedi robes? That's a lousy disguise. But wait, Uncle Owen also looks to be wearing Jedi robes, too! Or could it be they were wearing desert clothes? But somewhere along the line, all the Jedi started wearing desert garb as well! What's that about?

Neil

No it's actually genius. Vader gets a report on Obi-Wan living on Tatooine. He sees him in full Jedi robes and decides that Obi-Wan can't possibly be that stupid, chokes the intern that gave him the report, and goes back to staring at space.

by **philmcknight** » August 27th 2005 5:30 am

Ayatollah Krispies wrote:
philmcknight wrote:the original star wars novel was ghostwritten by Max Allan Collins. He's currently writing the novels for the tv show CSI.

The original Star Wars novel was ghostwritten by Alan Dean Foster, who also wrote Splinter of the Mind's Eye, The Approaching Storm, the story for Star Trek: The Motion Picture, and nothing ever to do with CSI.

ok, so i'm wrong. :mrgreen:

by **yarq** » June 7th 2025 3:38 pm

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by **yarq** » July 3rd 2025 5:59 pm

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