millenniumfalcon.com

Yep, there are probably 4,000,000 topics about this..topic. But this one is mine, and I am a pretty awesome person.

I don't think there are Jango Fetts in stormtroopers. I think they accepted people after some point--like several people have said.

- Luke wanted to join the Empire Yeah, he did. This one guy told me that he wanted to join a "Rebel Academy" on Yavin 4. Crazy. Well, Luke isn't a clone, so....

- Different voices Tem Morrison came in to dub Boba, why not the troopers?

- Lama Su said so Or one of those Kaminoans said it. "If he wants more clones, it will take more time to grow them." Those last babies in the test tubes were the last clones. After those clones died sometime after III or something, they start recruiting.

What do you think?

If you accept the Expanded Universe as canon then yes, there are recruits and clones from other sources in the Empire. Otherwise George has said that there were other clone sources after the original (Jango) died. Apparently they're not as good as Jango's as their production was rushed and wasn't as specifically well trained as the original clones. Then again when you rule the galaxy you don't really need the best cannon fodder.

Jango Fett was the first primary clone. After he died they had to use other sources to get their clones. They might have even used Boba Fett since he was unaltered. During the Clone Wars, they were using clones of Jango Fett.

What happens is that once you get the Empire formed and solidified you get bureaucrats stepping in and making foolish decisions. Lucas mentions something on the Episode 2 commentary that rich and powerful people get themselves and their cousins cloned en masse to boost their egos and essentially feel badass.

Now, Empires need to suppress their people but still have zealot types who support it. I would bet that people who joined were allowed into the ranks to become stormtroopers. However, it’s worth noting that those commanders in the black outfits weren’t clones more than likely. So perhaps that’s where recruits went.

Regardless of EU stuff, I have always felt that the “going to the academy next year” stuff was rather vauge and it’s hard to draw a conclusive stance on what that means. As far as I know.

If I have my facts wrong let me know.

Good post, Jason. I agree. I never thought the Academy was an Imperial one because Luke would not want to join it if it was. Remember he says to Obi-Wan that he hates the Empire.

Actually, the Acadamy Luke refers to IS the Imperial Academy.

http://www.starwars.com/community/askjc ... 10927.html


This would seem to support the supposition that, in the (20+?) years between ROTS and ANH, the Empire, as it grew, simply began conscripting normal people into the military.

This makes sense when you consider that the sole reason for having the clones in the first place was simply to provide a sufficient starting point for the Imperial Army. Once the Empire gained power, it would also have gained more resources (i.e., people) to draw on. This in turn means the Empire would no longer require resorting to cloning in order to support its military.

Good post, dbimage. The issue of accelerated aging in particular definitely provides a solid argument against all the clonetroopers being stormtroopers in the OT.

Some may still argue that more clones were made during and after the Clone War, and perhaps even into the OT, but that would carry quite a hefty price tag... why would the Empire spend innummerable sums of money continuously creating soldiers when, by the time of ANH, it could simply train willing individuals? This would almost certainly be more cost efficient, as no cloning process is required, and the end result is a soldier that lasts twice as long as a clone would.

As for your comment regarding the issue of there always being people willing to help the "bad guy," we should remember that, for all intents and purposes, the Empire IS the legitimate ruling body of the galaxy... the fact that the Republic became "evil" changes nothing. The Rebellion, therefore, is just what the name implies: a group of rebels who are trying to overthrow the existing government and replace it. So to many of the citizens of the Star Wars universe, the Empire, while perhaps a bit too milatiristic, may be seen as the legitimate government, and the Alliance as nothing more than a group of terrorists. Given that point of view, it's very plausible that people would join the Empire willingly.

Good post, dbimage. The issue of accelerated aging in particular definitely provides a solid argument against all the clonetroopers being stormtroopers in the OT.

Some may still argue that more clones were made during and after the Clone War, and perhaps even into the OT, but that would carry quite a hefty price tag... why would the Empire spend innummerable sums of money continuously creating soldiers when, by the time of ANH, it could simply train willing individuals? This would almost certainly be more cost efficient, as no cloning process is required, and the end result is a soldier that lasts twice as long as a clone would.

As for your comment regarding the issue of there always being people willing to help the "bad guy," we should remember that, for all intents and purposes, the Empire IS the legitimate ruling body of the galaxy... the fact that the Republic became "evil" changes nothing. The Rebellion, therefore, is just what the name implies: a group of rebels who are trying to overthrow the existing government and replace it. So to many of the citizens of the Star Wars universe, the Empire, while perhaps a bit too milatiristic, may be seen as the legitimate government, and the Alliance as nothing more than a group of terrorists. Given that point of view, it's very plausible that people would join the Empire willingly.

Usually, this debate boils down to two stances.

1. If you enjoy the EU, the stormtroopers are not all clones.

2. If you only go by what the movies present, it's obvious that the stormtroopers are clones.

Me, I just watch the films, and couldn't care less what the paid fan fiction writers come up with.

I would dispute that. Nowhere in the OT does it say or imply that the Stormtroopers are clones. As many have pointed out many times before, they have different voices and are different heights. Therefore - not clones (until Lucas fixes it so they are). What, presented in the movies, makes you say that it is obvious they are clones?

I think Correllian was spot-on with this-


It simply doesn't make financial sense to clone soldiers and raise them from birth when you can chuck recruits into service after a few weeks training.

Dogg.

Unless it's expanded or explained diferently in episode 3, I dont see the confusion.

White armored clones are the republic troops in the prequels. It's not a stretch to think that the white armored troops twenty years later are clones as well.

Personally, I never noticed varying heights in the troopers, and the voice modulation of the trooper helmets disguises voice differences. Even so, these "discrepencies" can be explained as the limits of technology at the time the films were made.

Why would completely loyal and obedient soldiers be switched out with free thinking troops? Feel free to believe they started using conscripts, I just don't think it's a logical progression using only the films as your basis.

Hmmm... but if you have to "explain discrepencies" in terms of technology outside the world of the stories then you can't "only go by what the movies present". That seems to nullify your point.

Fact is (and it is a fact), the Stormtroopers are different heights and have different voices. That is a fact as presented by the movies. I'm not saying that was Lucas' intention. I'm just saying that is the evidence provided in the OT.

That seems to carry more weight than -

-because that is a leap. That is an assumption. Is it logical? Maybe, but it is an assumption. An assumption carries less weight to me than the clear visual fact that the Stormtroopers are different heights and the clear audio fact that they have different voices.

As for this -

That has already been answered - money.

Dogg.

That's just it. You dont have to explain any "discrepencies".

They're so minor that only the overobsessed fanbase would even notice them. I sure never did. That's why I put the word in quotes.


Most normal moviegoers aren't going to put too much extra thought into where the troopers come from. AOTC already showed them.

Like I said before, it all boils down to what you want to be true. I think it's obvious that GL intends the audiece to accept the masked troopers as clones. You apparently disagree.

Yeah, I do but, hey, I see your point amd I see where you're coming from. You asspumption makes sense and is probably what Lucas intends, and maybe it will be clarified in RotS. At the moment though, just personally, I'll go by what I see in the OT for now. Heh, just for now though...

Dogg.

Noice.

I talked to my substitute teacher today who's a total Star Wars fan. Of course, I hadn't talked to him in about two years so he's obviously been out of the loop lately.

Anyway, I asked him this very question and he gave me a few replies. The conversation lasted like two minutes, just one right after the other:

Me: Are stormtroopers clonetroopers?

Mr. B: Yes.

Me: What? What about growth acceleration? How do you know they're the same clones from III to IV?

Mr. B: They're not, they just made copies from the Generals.

Me: A copy of a copy?

Mr. B: No, not a copy of a copy, they used the original source. You know all the stormtroopers have the same voice.

Me: Why don't they sound like Jango Fett?

Mr. B: Because George Lucas didn't know what Jango sounded like back in 1977.

My friend: Wait, tell him about Luke and the Academy.

Me: Oh yeah. Luke wanted to join the Imperial Academy.

Mr. B: No, they just said he wanted to join the Academy, he didn't say what Academy.

END
..pretty much

I didn't want to come of sounding like some punkass kid, so I just tried to accept his answers, although they weren't all that true. I could have shot back at him info, but there was no need, it was still good to hear what a fan thought. I got lots and lots of info from here actually, thanks guys.

Okay there are a few things being argued which aren't quite right.

1. Stormtroopers aren't Clones because they don't sound like Jango. Clonetroopers and Boba sound like Jango, therefore Stormtroopers can't be clones.

Answer: Not quite. The clonetroopers and Boba sound like Jango because of the HEAVY influence of Jango on their lives. Jango is responsible for instructing the Clones and Boba and teaching them how to speak. They listen to Jango so that's why they sound like Jango. Boba not only listens to Jango while he's alive but also has many recordings of Jango that he listens to alone in the Slave 1 after Jango has died. By the time the OT comes around and there are newer batches of Clonetroopers, Jango's influence has disappeared.

2. Stormtroopers aren't Clones because they're different heights.

Answer: Again, that's overlooking some other possibilities. First of all, its possible that clones of clones are subject to genetic variations. Secondly, its also very possible (nay, probable) that they seek alternate sources of clones. They may not all be clones of Jango, but they are all clones.

3. Stormtroopers aren't Clones because Luke says he wants to go to the Academy.

Answer: Assuming Luke is talking about the Imperial Academy, that doesn't mean he's gonna train to be a stormtrooper. The fact that he's a "little short" for a stormtrooper is evidence that he can't be a stormtrooper anyways. But besides that, there's many things one can do in an Academy. You can train to be an officer, train to be a pilot, or train to be some other special force. Nobody is arguing that all the pilots or imperial officers are clones. In fact, in the U.S. if you go to an academy like Air Force or Naval, you become an officer when you go into the military. You're not a grunt (which is what the stormtroopers are) you're an officer.

Yep, these are all totally valid points and make perfect sense. It still remains though that the only thing to suggest that the Stormtroopers are clones, in the entire 5 movies we have seen, is that the first batch of Clonetroopers were clones (heh, hence the name I suppose). There isn't one part of the OT that suggests that Stormtroopers are clones (yet).

It's like assuming I had toast for breakfast today just because someone saw me have toast for breakfast 20 years ago. It would be a leap to assume that. It could be right, it could be wrong but it is still a leap.

I personally think that Lucas will add or change things, whether in RotS or in rereleases of the OT with yet more tinkering, to make the Stormtroopers clones which would make you guys right. I simply don't think it makes much sense to grow clones from birth when there is a whole galaxy of cheap recruits under your control.

Dogg.

Actually, the term "Clonetrooper" has never been used in a SW film. Even in the AOTC commentary GL refers to them as troops or stormtroopers.

Marketing folks came up with clonetrooper to distunguish the episode 2 soldiers for merchandizing.

Am I late jumping into this thread? Why yes, I am! But here goes.

Academy- Prior to reading the Jedi Council Jocasta Nu shpiel, I simply assumed (after putting some thought into the matter) that "the Academy" Luke wanted to join was not politically aligned in any way. I figured it was a training school for individual to later become commercial pilots. It made sense to me that the Empire can't be the only people in the entire galaxy who have a need for skilled, qualified pilots. Shipping companies, mining operations and tons of other business entities would require pilots. And then there are the numerous freelance (ie, smuggling) applications for piloting as well. But I guess Jocasta Nu has spoken...

Why continue the cloning operation after the rise of the empire? Easy. You can build clones in virtually limitless numbers and ensure a certain level of order-taking and athletic ability. Jango Fett was chosen as the clone source because, let's face it, he's tough, he's athletic and he naturally had a lot of skills that the Emperor prized among cannon fodder. It made sense in the short term to clone his army. It still makes sense in the long term. I'd imagine that the Emperor (whom we've seen no evidence of being too stingy with his money with his Death Star projects and other boondoggles) would've seen the wisdom in spending the extra money in cloning troops. And that's assuming that it truly is more expensive to grow troops rather recruit and train them.

To recruit troops, you'd have to dispatch an unholy number of recruiters across the entire galaxy to find the right type of male human who might fit the bill as a stormtrooper. And assuming that it can even be done, you still have an individual who might think for himself and develop his own opinions. It may or may not cost more to grow clones, but the Emperor clearly values loyalty and may think nothing of growing patriotic servants of the Empire who will never question authority and will only do what they're told.

The Empire clearly shifted their recruiting policies after Episode II. Clones were in charge of almost all aspects of the Battle of Geonosis (ground forces, armed transports, tactics and strategies). Jedi were in charge in certain engagements, but the overwhelming evidence suggests that the clonetroops did the lion's share of the work during that battle.

Compare that to the Battle of Hoth (or Endor, you could say), where the stormtroopers were nothing more than grunts while (presumably recruited, NOT clones) officers handled the finer details of the battle, such as deploying transports, organizing battle methods, etc.

Myself, I'm curious about where Palpatine found his Crimson Royal Guard. They were posted in his office before the all drama on Geonosis popped up.

EDIT- Oh and by the way, where in the Episode II commentary does Lucas say that other non-Jango clones were produced? I'm not calling whoever wrote that a liar, I'd just like to hear it for myself and am too lazy to watch the movie with commentary-enabled all the way through to find it. Thanks!

The public was hungry for more Star Wars. Well, Lucas just didn't feel like making more films at whatever time and for whatever reason, so he compromised and allowed a bunch of books to be published. it's not like he's been in the editors office helping them cook up ideas for different storylines. The only time I've ever heard of him getting involved in the editorial process (and even this is a black helicopter conspiracy theory) is making Del Rey kill off Anakin Solo. Lucas has consistently called the EU "an alternate universe" or some other dismissive term. He's made no secret that he doesn't consider them when he makes his movies. And, really, why should he? Most of the EU books (anything written by Barbara Hambly and Kevin J. Anderson) are complete shit anyway. If I were him, I wouldn't want to be bound by the events in those books either. Between Hutt Jedi, Sith witches, Jacen Solo having lightsaber combat as a two year old and other unbelievably lame ideas, I cannot accept that Lucas approved or had any involvement with that crap.

I thought somebody else said that on the AOTC commentary, like Dennis Muren or Ben Burtt. In any case, it's not mean to be that serious. It's a cute little reference to the trooper banging his head in ANH.

After reading what Lambik wrote, I then recalled Lucas's quote. Lucas himself did indeed say it, but interestingly he described it as being a funny genetic trait of Jango's that was cloned on to the stormtroopers. It's not a crucial plot point by any means, it's just something that's supposed to be funny. However, Lucas's phrasing of his comment pretty much confirms that Jango clones are most certainly used during the OT. Jango banging his head is just a cute reference (as you put it), but Lucas's comment is much more than that.

Well, the big theory was that Lucas didn't want someone to pick up a Star Wars book, read the name "Anakin" and assume the writer was referring to Anakin Skywalker. I'm sure there are people out there dumb enough to jump to that conclusion by reading "Anakin Solo". Still, seeing as he was by far the most interesting character in the NJO series, his loss left a big hole in the story. Especially since the whiny older brother Jacen took his place in the dramatic scheme of things (which is clearly not what the initial NJO writers intended).

It's just sad. But like I said, nobody has ever confirmed this.

He may not have heard of the character Anakin Solo until it was too late. I doubt he monitors Del Rey very closely beyond setting a few parameters (certain characters cannot be killed and some other stuff).

Guy, forget WHY you know this, I'd like to know HOW you know this. But whatever, thanks for correcting me.

I think the Star Wars OT Storm Troopers are clones...

The Storm Troopers, if they have varying heights, can still be clones. Look at identical twins... sometimes one twin is shorter or taller than the other, but they have the exact same genetic background.

Storm Troopers can still be clones without being copied from Jango Fett. Who is to say the Empire, with thousands upon thousands of worlds, could not find a different person between the PT and the OT as a new template?

Clones are better than conscripts, and possibly better than volunteers for the simple reason that it takes the emotional strain off of a planet's people. What do they care what the Emperor does, and why should they care about the rebellion if they don't have to send their sons, husbands, and fathers off to fight? It would be a great way to keep people happy.

We do know, however, that the officers and several other "unmasked" soldiers of the Empire are not clones. I would assume that they are volunteers, but from the aristocracy and elite rather than from the lower classes. Grand Moff Tarkin was an aristocrat appointed governor, so obviously the Emperor likes to hook the elites up with high positions of authority. I would assume that everyone from 2nd Lieutenant (Army) and Ensign (Navy) up are all blue bloods, and not clones... but the rest... I would say are all clones. Probably not all based on Jango Fett, but clones of one or more other templates

As for Luke joining the Academy, god knows what sort of Academy he wanted to go off to, but it certainly wasn't for the Empire. When he tells Obi Wan he can't go to Alderaan because he'd piss off Uncle Owen, he drops the line that he hates the Empire.... something like, "I hate the Empire, but I can't go with you.. I've got too much work to do here..."

Máire (has too much spare time on her hands)

I've always been under the impression from some of the novelizations/EU that the OT ST's are clones of Jango, and just regular everday folks. The people who didn't want to serve, sent a clone of themselves in for recruitment, or had clones of themselves made, many actually, as a way to strut their stuff for the Empire while still being the lazy bastards they are.

Lucas has said that in OT some of the ST are still clones of Jango as well as clones of others and even recruited people that were not clones at all.

So really all points of view are right.

As far as Luke going to the Academy, I would assume that he is going to the same Academy as his friend Biggs, who ends up with the Rebellion, this and Lukes hatred of the Empire leads me to believe he was planning on joining the Rebellion

I know some of you hate the EU, but I do remember reading in several comics and novels where it says, quite disctinctly, that the Academy is THE Imperial Academy and that Luke knew this, but still wanted to go, if only to follow his old pal Biggs and learn to fight and have adventures. Didn't necessarily mean he had a hardon to go join the Empire.

And remember, Han Solo was called, even in the movies, Captain Solo, due to his time as an officer in the Imperial forces. So just because one serves in the Imperial regime, doesn't mean they're branded loyal for life.

As far as the troopers go, I think they're mostly all clones, but by the time they got to Episode 4, the Empire was using new DNA sources, which would give credence to the troopers having different heights, voices, etc. But that doesn't mean that regular non-cloned people can't join up and fight for the Empire. I know, I read the recruitment brochure.

Bantha boobs.

He's called "Captain Solo" only in ESB and ROTJ. He wasn't called that back when he was just a smuggler. He's called "Captain" because he's been promoted in the ranks of the Rebel Alliance, not because of any kind of Imperial training.

Since we´re using EU sources, General Madine from ROTJ was formerly the founder of the Imperial Storm Commandos, the black-clad elite commandos of the Empire. (He defected after disagreeing with Imperial policies).

Such as choking officers from a distance, blowing up planets, you know the usual complaints...

So is his hair.

I think by the OT there is both conscripts & clones as ST. I dont think that they would stop people from volunteering. Letting men & women from your planet serve the emperor in some way is probably how they showed their respect & loyalty to him. I mean his policy was to rule by fear plain & simple, thus the death star. What better way to keep your planet from annhilation than to show your allegiance to the emperor in some way. For some it was having their planets be food sources & others it was being places for manufacturing of weapons & technologies. Some could maybe only offer its people to serve the empire. He ruled these planets, not just asked them to join him. After ep.III any planet who did not willingly join was conquered. After that there is no choice but to obey, or else you die.

As far as the names for the troopers, to rule by fear you cant call your troops just soldiers. You need something for people to remember so whenever they hear the name of those troops again, they know they're in trouble.Stormtroopers were like swat/infantry guys who would as the name implies, storm into anywhere they were ordered to without hesitation. You also had the other specialized troopers as well, Scouttroopers, Snowtroopers. I'm sure they had certain type of trooper to handle just about any situation. Just not Jedi.

I think the stormtroopers are clones. First off, the morphing of the design of the clone trooper armor from AOTC to ROTS to ANH is an obvious hint to that. Second, any empire that wishes to conduct endless military operations to perpetuate its power would like to avoid the nasty feelings that are engendered in the population when the body parts of 18 year old Johnny are shipped back home from the campaigns. What better way to do so than to have an army made up almost completely of family-less clone soldiers who don't have anyone who cares about them. Third, the clone troops have loyalty only to the emperor through their training and genetic manipulation. So when the empire tells them "Go down to that planet and make them wish they had never rebelled" none of the soldiers are saying to themselves "Hey, my aunt Judy lives down there!" Fourth, the cloning process by the Kaminoans is so cheap per unit that it makes it worth it in the savings you get when all your soldiers are physically almost identical. Organs can be transplanted from one clone to another to repair battle damage without rejection, only one type of blood needed, and one size really does fit all with that armor.

Also, clone troops don't bitch about being sent on their third deployment to the outer rim in 18 months and they don't get a "short-timers attitude". I bet there's no VA nursing home for old clones either; they are probably just put out of their misery with a lethal injection and then processed into protein patties for food for younger clones ala soylent green. I bet clones can't get away with claiming their emphysema is "service related" because they picked up smoking while they were stationed on a star destroyer 'cause they had nothing else better to do.

This is a long standing topic but the general consensus after much debate (and there was good debate for the pros and cons) is that the Stormtroopers are clones, with the exception of the Imperial Officers (who technically aren't stormtroopers).

I thought the best theory was that the stormtroopers are still clones of Jango but that there were not trained the same way as the early clones were.

The theory is omewhere between EP3 and EP4 newer clones are just given simplified training, as they are technically no longer required in large battle situations (more skirmish situations) once the Empire had a stronghold over the galaxy.

In other words their role changed from soldier to more of a policing role.

Hence the reason why their skills were not as great as the original clones.

Easier to train basic skills and get them out then longer training and more skilled soldiers.

If you follow the general tenure of the movies, you see that everything changes - the early battlecruisers to the ones we see in the Episode 4-6, the weapons, etc. The Clones progressing into the Stormtroopers is just another extension of this. I mean we don't ask when we first see the large battlecruisers at the end of EP2 whether they are the same in EP4-6. We know they are just an earlier example of the design, refined over the next 15-25 years.

No, he's called Captain because he owns his own ship and is its captain. He may also have held the rank of Captain, but it seemed to me that he was a mercenary in ESB and didn't hold any military rank. It wasn’t until RotJ that he was actually in the Alliance, and not just around to try to get into Leia’s space-panties.

True, that is. I forgot that he introduces himself as "Han Solo, I'm captain of the Millennium Falcon..."

I think that one General at the beginning of ESB does address him as "Captain Solo" as a rank, not just as a pilot.

How can you tell the difference?

I don't know, it just seems more official. And I just assumed that he got some sort of rank or honor when he helped pop the Death Star.

http://www.mtv.com/movies/news/articles ... tory.jhtml

There's an MTV interview with Lucas. I think it has a couple of episode 3 spoilers, so I will pull the part of the interview that addresses this.

Those who have seen all six movies now know that there is a direct link between the Clone Troopers of the first three episodes and the Storm Troopers of the three that follow. So are all those soldiers from the original trilogy actually just the same guy? "Yes," Lucas said. Fair enough, master — but if that's true, then why do the troopers in the earlier movies possess different voices?

"Well, yeah, some of the voices have been changed, um, to make it more consistent," he said, raising an eyebrow at the precociousness of the Padawan. Indeed, Lucas has gone back and changed the voices of the Storm Troopers during recent re-edits for the special editions. "Those particular two guys that you're talking about — which I know about, which is a very good performance — the idea is that over time, there were new clone strains introduced, and then they even conscripted guys to be Storm Troopers. So it's not just purely clones: It started out as clones, but then it got diluted over the years as they found out they could shanghai guys [more cheaply] than they could build clones."

So it's a lot of "clones still being around" and a little bit of "conscripted".

Diluted Troopers. I like it...

I'm sure it'd make a great Star Wars shtick band name

The end. It was answered by Lucas above, and the headbang from Jango in Clones was probably something ILM wanted to--and could--do.

Hmmm anyone remember that Book of Starwars characters?
It was like the book of vehicles only it listed all the main and inconsequencial characters of the OT. IIRC there was a stormtrooper named Davin Felth or something like that he was the one who says "Look sir .. Droids" I dont recall them claiming him as a clone, also Dengar he was a stormtrooper befor he was a bounty hunter, was he not? Its a irrelavent argument even though its fun and both sides will have equal points. I personally dont know or care though this has been a interesting thread to read.

So what explains this Davin Felth guy and Dengars imperial service?


******** NVM that davin felth guy is just a EU character and lol from a google search a fixation of a few over the top starwars fans imaginations *********

Dengar´s armor consists of snowtrooper and stormtrooper parts repainted brown (read this in a production note). According to the EU, he was an Imperial Assassin (which explains his camo-outfit) before going freelance.

I believe Lucas said in an interview from a few days back that the stormtroopers were a mix of clones (later Jango-series and others) and enlisted people. Incidently, some of the uniformed officers seen with stormtroopers in several of the films are designated as stormtrooper commanders out of their armor.

EDIT: Didn´t see the interview in question was on the previous page.