More Attacks on London!

[Ternian]

Three stations and another bus.

Oh dear!

[BearaceDougie]

Wow Sky News is Fast

They Inturrupted Lost here so it must be Important

But it isnt as Serious as July 7th Attack... Well we'll see

Some Nail Bombs

ATM No Casualties

Thankfully not as Serious

[Ternian]

A nail bomb, possible shootings, an explosion on a bus....

Scary shit.

First person injured - reported.

[BearaceDougie]

Ahh yes, an Injury

Whats it mean by, the Champagne corks popping sound was the Deternater not the bomb?

Citizins of London must be shittin themselves

[Ternian]

Hmm...mobile phone system shut down again...grr.

[TroyObliX]

Plain clothes cops shouldn't have the authority to shoot anyone. How is your average citizen, or Brazillian tourist supposed to know yer a legit cop if you don't look like one. And now they say it was an accident. That sucks. It would be a shame if this distracted from the official investigation into the original 7/7 bombings. If there is one.

Poor guy.

[Bandersnatch]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/07 ... index.html

Why did this "poor guy" from an appartment building that was under surveillance challenge police, refuse to obey orders and then run thru a Tube station until he fell and was finally shot?

Confused...

[TroyObliX]

I don't get it. Are you saying that because he left a building (possibly a multi-unit complex, I don't know the details) that was under suspicion and ran from the cops his 'poor guy' status is in question? We are not supposed to feel empathetic to his death because he did not immediately become obedient at the first hint of authority? Maybe I'm reading too much into what you wrote, I dunno.

I can just imagine a couple of guys walk up to me, not looking like cops, and giving me a hassle, and one of them pulling thier gun. I might run away too. I think it's also weird that now they blew their cover with whoever it was they actually were watching there. This is one of the oddest stories of late.

Too bad the investigation into the loss of life is costing more lives, though.

[Insert Username]

Why did this "poor guy" from an appartment building that was under surveillance challenge police, refuse to obey orders and then run thru a Tube station until he fell and was finally shot?:

Who the fuck knows but it certainly WASN'T because he was connected to terrorist activities. Fucker got shot 5 times in the head and Ian Blair claimed the shooting was directly linked to the bombings but he was wrong (either he purposely lied when he made the claim or didn't know the facts and lied by default).

It's cool that cops can shoot you dead in the street for slightest suspicion of wrongdoing though, I think that's a big step in the right direction for law enforcement.

[Guru]

At the time the police would have been thinking it's either this guy or the rest of the passangers on the train including themselves. Fuck it, he ran from 20 armed police when he knew full well what the atmosphere of London was.

[Insert Username]

Fuck it, he ran from 20 armed police when he knew full well what the atmosphere of London was.

So they shot him.
5 times.
In the head.

Clearly the lesson here is that any non-Causasian inhabiting London better not step out of line or they'll be shot to death in the street and it'll be called an accident. But what can you expect when London coppers are trained in anti-terrorist techniques in Israel these days?

[Jotun]

It was justified but unfortunate that he turned out to be an innocent. He shouldn't have decided to run away from the police while wearing a trenchcoat in the summer, especially after two major terrorist attacks.

[Bandersnatch]

I don't get it....

I'm just saying I was confused by the whole thing. That's all. I'm certainly not saying they have a right to shoot everybody who runs.

But why did this dude run? And why didn't he want to talk to the cops (under cover or in uniform), and then jump a ticket barrier at, of all places, a tube station?

Unfortunately, we may never know.

[Guru]

See, now some twats are outside Scotland Yard protesting. I'd like to see how they'd reacted had one of their loved ones been blown up on one of those trains or that bus.

On a side not, that was the bus my sister used to use to get to work and blew up outside her old place of work, Morley Scott. They told empoyees not to look out of the windows while forensics were being completed for some strange reason. And yeah, it was after the bits of people were removed.

[The_Somnambulist]

The guy was really stupid for running from cops telling you to stop at a time like this.

If the cops were in plain-clothes get-ups for their job, why would it be stupid to run away? From the perspective of the Brazilian, (who ain't exactly the most non-terrorist looking guy in a predominantly Anglo part of the world) this confrontation with the "bobbies" could have seemed like errupting mob violence. The masses are always blood-thirsty...

Anyway, what a pathetic end for a life.

[The_Somnambulist]

I can easily distinguish between plainclothes policemen and non-plainclothed policemen. Their strategy is pointless.

[bearvomit]

Aparently they now have a new policy:
canada.com/ottawa/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=b1636aea-9c6e-4bb5-8538 ...


Here are some quotes from the above article:

LONDON -- London's police commissioner expressed regret Sunday for the slaying of a Brazilian electrician by officers who mistook him for a suspect in the recent terror bombings, but he defended a police shoot-to-kill policy as "the only way" to stop would-be suicide bombers.

The man shot Friday at the Stockwell subway station was identified as Jean Charles de Menezes, 27. Witnesses said he was wearing a heavy, padded coat when plainclothes police chased him into a subway car, pinned him to the ground and shot him five times in the head and torso in front of horrified passengers.

Blair initially said Menezes was "directly linked" to the investigation of Thursday's attacks, but police then said Saturday he had no connection to the bomb attempts.

"This is a tragedy," Blair said Sunday of the shooting. "The Metropolitan Police accepts full responsibility for this. To the family I can only express my deep regrets."

He also defended the shoot-to-kill policy, saying such action only applied when lives were believed to be at risk.

"I am very aware that minority communities are talking about a
shoot-to-kill policy," he said. "It's only a
shoot-to-kill-in-order-to-protect policy."



Not sure I would like to be under that policy. That's a pretty big jump for you Brits, going from police carying just a billy club and a whistle to being shot in the head and finding out if you did it later!

[The_Somnambulist]

Shoot first, ask questions later! W00t!

[bearvomit]

I mean really, shit, the guy was already PINNED on the ground. How much of a danger was he?!! He couldn't move his friggin arms, how's he going to set off a bomb, yell GO GO GADGET TERRORIST ATTACK??!!

Shot 5 times point blank in the back of the head infront of a whole crowd of people trying to go to work. Yeah, good going sherlock holmes. You solved another case. Make sure you call and tell his momma what a bad terrorist he was. FUCKER

[SeekUp52577]

I mean really, shit, the guy was already PINNED on the ground. How much of a danger was he?!! He couldn't move his friggin arms, how's he going to set off a bomb, yell GO GO GADGET TERRORIST ATTACK??!!

Are you kidding?

[Insert Username]

Yoou might reconsider his angle next time you have a pocket full of weed and a cop wants to frisk you so you leg it or resist and they pop you a few times in the back of the head.

[Guru]

Think I'd be willing to hand it over and get a fine if they pulled a gun on me. Besides, the laws over here aren't as strict on that as they are in the US.

[Insert Username]

If you were running through a Tube station hell for leather there's fuck all chance of you knowing much of anything that's happening behind you until your head tears apart mate.

Boo fucking hoo, you ran cause you had a bag of weed but they thought you were a terrorist so it's "justified". Now you're dead with your brain all over the tiles, like that poor fucker who was on his way to work. What a fucked up, ignoble way to die.

[Bandersnatch]

So the fact that he had an expired visa means he didn't know that it might be a bad idea to go running through a subway station just weeks and days after some terrorist bombings took place?

Again I'm not saying they were right to blast his brains to oblivion, but now I'm beginning to wonder just how many brains this guy had in the first place.

An expired visa doesn't mean he had to run for his life. And if the visa was the reason he ran, then that snuffs out the excuse that he didn't know they were cops. If he didn't know they were cops, and if all of them were incognito, then maybe that almost makes sense.

[TroyObliX]

The logic obsessed dickhead in me still fails to see the point of blowing up civillians who have a marginal at best say so in the affairs of any state, just several blocks away from other more high profile targets.

I hope it never comes to this point, but when cops start shooting white caucasian people or women during investigation mishaps, a lot of people will change thier tune on the brazillian guy.

[Bandersnatch]

...a lot of people will change thier tune on the brazillian guy.

Yeah, I think you are absolutely right about that.

[The_Somnambulist]

The logic obsessed dickhead in me still fails to see the point of blowing up civillians who have a marginal at best say so in the affairs of any state, just several blocks away from other more high profile targets.

When the people feel that their very lives are at danger over political decisions, they'll get smart and challenge their government's policies. Fortunately, this government's work in Iraq has nothing to do with any of this (Blair).

[SeekUp52577]

Well, let's say (none of this Brazillian stuff happened) that the police were chasing this guy through the subway, he trips, they get to him, help him up, and as they are checking to see (God forbid) if he actually has a bomb or not, 6 Policemen die and 4 are injured in a second. Would you criticize the London Police for not taking action?

[The_Somnambulist]

Come on people, 52 people die in a terrorist attack...

Booooooooooorrrrrrrrrrrrrrring. What else is on?

...arrest Blair for negligence, and completley pull out of the war on terror.

I'm listening...

[The_Somnambulist]

It is better [one hundred] guilty Persons should escape than that one innocent Person should suffer.

[Daglington]

Not if any of those hundreds of guilty people can then blow up hundreds of innocent people.

Then its thousands of innocent people suffering (including families etc) rather than one innocent person.

[TroyObliX]

When the people feel that their very lives are at danger over political decisions, they'll get smart and challenge their government's policies. Fortunately, this government's work in Iraq has nothing to do with any of this (Blair).

Thats great, but my point wasn't a question on the logic of terrorism as a tactic as much as one of target selection. We have been told of the 'masterminds' and 'precise execution' of the initial attacks, and I for one question how smart the alleged terrorists can really be when it's evident that thier plan has a major kink in it. That kink being that citizens have very limited say in what actually occurs in thier names. If these people really wanted to damage thier alleged 'enemy' or influence the public to alter policy, they are stupid. Because what they have done has totally driven things in the opposite direction. As did 9/11, Madrid, etc.

All they (the alleged terrorists and those who allegedly fight them) have really accomplished is to position the entire world on the edge of WW4 and possible nuclear confrontation. And the only people who will suffer that are the common people.

[SeekUp52577]

All they have really accomplished is to position the entire world on the edge of WW4 and possible nuclear confrontation. And the only people who will suffer that are the common people.

(Ah, a man who thinks the Cold War was World War III or a typo?)

Anyways, so if we go to the next World War, you think terrorists will be upset? I'm not sure what you're getting at.

[The_Somnambulist]

Not if any of those hundreds of guilty people can then blow up hundreds of innocent people.

Then its thousands of innocent people suffering (including families etc) rather than one innocent person.

My point, more exactly, is that when a government is faced with something as perversely menacing and volatile as terrorists, in the form of suicide bombers, a greater effort should be taken by the gov't to recognize the reasoning for these heinous actions, through democratic means, instead of morphing into a militant, fascistic fortress willing to sacrifice innocents due to ignorance.

These are new and extraordinary circumstances but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be handled so barbarically by denying these terrorists reason.

That kink being that citizens have very limited say in what actually occurs in thier names.

It's possible these folks may have a greater faith in democracy than you do. Believe it or not, many others (Americans mostly, I assume), myself included, wouldn't even be here giving a damn about the international atmosphere if it weren't for 9-11. This strategy does work, albeit at a terribly unfortunate price.

90% of the world was against aggression in Iraq. These baseless plans for invasion spawned the largest international protest ever known. And it turned out that these voiceless citizens had better judgement.

Because what they have done has totally driven things in the opposite direction. As did 9/11, Madrid, etc.

I'm not so sure of that. The leaders for this "War on Terror" now look like fools amidst exhausting resources and strengthening resolve amongst pissed-off dune coons at home (!!) and abroad. And I think people, on the whole, are getting smart to all this...

[TroyObliX]

I don't really have 'faith' in jack shit. Faith short circuts the critical analysis process from ever occuring in my head so I gave up on it.

Im still following all these stories, I'm not arguing with you folks, you may all be correct in various ways. I just have a lot of unanswered questions in my own head that I don't hear anyone else asking. I'm of the mind that I don't want to generate more needless negativity debatting someone elses tragedy just so I can feel 'correct'. In the end, I feel badly for everyone.

"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."

from http://rescomp.stanford.edu/~cheshire/EinsteinQuotes.html

I still have hope in the 6 billion of us.

[SeekUp52577]

[Insert Username]

Turns out this guy got shot 8 times, not 5 as first reported. 7 in the head, 1 in the shoulder. He was working in London and regularly sending money home to his parents living in a poor rural Brazilian town for his fathers cancer treatement. His visa was current and had not lapsed.

That should teach those uppity 3rd world plebs for trying to better themselves, their families and their entire communities by working in Europe! Goddamnit don't they know their place is tied to a Nike production line?

[Daglington]

Anyone that willingly moves to London to work deserves to be shot, so its a moot point.

[bearvomit]

well for the first time i'm in agreement with IU on this. there's no need to just throw all of your civility and laws to the wind over the second bombing. the US didn't go apeshit and turn into marshal law, every white man for himself. welcome to the 21st century you limey superfriends. take a chill pill and start profiling like the rest of the world does.

[Bandersnatch]

...the US didn't go apeshit and turn into marshal law, every white man for himself...

We didn't?

[Insert Username]

the US didn't go apeshit and turn into marshal law, every white man for himself.

*cough*Patriot Act*cough*

But I'm hearing you, you don't shoot people in the streets because you suspect them of doing something. Leave that shit for Iraq or Afghanistan or something. Just a couple of stupid cops with twitchy trigger fingers caught up in a bit of hysteria. But hey, it was in aid of the War On Terror and civilian casualities aren't limited to war zones.

Anyone that willingly moves to London to work deserves to be shot, so its a moot point.

The FBI & MI5 are very interested in your posts, Dags

[Daglington]

I already have an FBI file, prints and all

[bearvomit]

I've come to realize the "WAR on terror" is a bullshit scam just like the "war on drugs" was. We should have stayed in afghanistan and found osama. but don't think that we're through in that area now that Iraq is ours...we're currently building a HUGE military base in Israel right as we speak that is suppose to be finished August 31 of this year. Here's a link:
http://www.thegoldenreport.com/asp/jerrysnewsmanager/anmviewer.asp?a=928&z=1
looks a little big to be used for housing jews that don't want to move from Gaza. More likely a staging ground for our move into Syria.


And so far the affects of the Patriot Act aren't really felt by the average american however the POTENTIAL for abuse is huge.

[SeekUp52577]

[Bandersnatch]

I've come to realize the "WAR on terror" is a bullshit scam just like the "war on drugs" was...

How long that take you?

[bearvomit]

Seems Britain needs to get with the program. They had the chance to hand over one of the planner's of the bombing to the US a month before it happened but they said no.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/07/28/london.tube/index.html

[TroyObliX]

Maybe they weren't done setting him up to look like one of the bombers yet. Or maybe they just aren't getting with the program.

[The_Somnambulist]

For what it's worth:

With five suspects now in custody in the failed London bombings of July 21, the one arrested here has confessed to investigators to carrying a bomb on the Underground but claimed it was meant as a "demonstration" rather than as a means of killing, according to a person with firsthand knowledge of the interrogation.

[Bandersnatch]

For what it's worth:

...claimed it was meant as a "demonstration" rather than as a means of killing...

I once stuck a firecracker up a cat's ass and lit it. I only meant it as a demonstration. I didn't mean to blow the cat in half, really...

[Insert Username]

Did the animal cruelty lobbies lock you up and torture you for information on other known cat/firecracker participants?