What Phantom Menace Did Well

[CoGro]

I recently watched the film for the first time in a while, and now that the saga is done I made note of what the film's strengths and weaknesses are, and what I think will be fixed in the upcoming revision.

Firstly, the Sith were well established as the absolute evil in the universe. Alot of this is a credit to how well Ian plays Sidious. Johnny's music in all of these scenes reminded me I was watching Star Wars. It's probably the most consistant aspect of the entire film. The problem is, there's not much built around it. I don't want more Darth Maul or more Sidious in the film, but I do want the other characters to FEAR them, talk about them, and worry about them when they're not on screen. I want the impression that if they aren't confronted soon some SERIOUS shit is going to go down. That lack of anxiety and sense of urgency hurt the plot, and in turn, hurt the story down the line.

The sense of wonder. I think this was important for the first film in the series and it's there. Our introduction to the universe of grandiose and it should be. It was important to convey that this was a galaxy filled with millions of different types of beings that lived in all sorts of wacky environments with different cultures and this was done well. However, I think Jar Jar and the gungans were the wrong race to move this along. It's been beaten to death, but the gungan characters seriously hurt the film. They become distractions rather than spectacle. The Nemoidians, in hindsight, served a great purpose; I just wish some of the voice acting was better (I think Nute's a much better character in AOTC and ROTS).

Like the Sith, I think the Jedi scenes are the best talky scenes of the film. Aside from the fact that I feel they're the most believeably acted, the Jedi philosophy is conveyed well and because of this, the following films work in regards to Anakin's conflict with the code. Qui-Gon's conflict with the council sets up Anakin's in ROTS, and I think this subplot should have been played up more in TPM. In fact, it should have been central to the film's plot. Qui-Gon's role should have been bigger and with the Qui-Gon scene back in ROTS, the tragedy of the Jedi as a failed order would have been heightened ten-fold in addition to making Anakin's redemption that much more powerful.

I like the story and I even, for the most part, like the plot of the movie. I think lost in the film are a bunch of terrific individual scenes and performances. Jack Lloyd turns in a good performance in one scene that ends up being one of the most powerful in the film - when Anakin leaves his mother. Ewan is terrific throughout and if he was given a bit more to work with here he could have made his TPM Obi-wan an icon early in the series. Unfortunately, his character gets lost in the plot. As I think about it, the problem was that George wanted to convey so many different side stories without giving any particular one proper development - resulting in a lack of power from each. The Obi-wan/Qui-Gon conflict never really achieves what it wants to do; the Qui-Gon council conflict the same; the Palaptine v. Senate stuff....it's all established, but not set up well enough by the plot to strike the proper chords.

I've tried to keep some of the bad performances and lousy dialogue/screenwriting out of my criticism, but it's very hard to ignore in the film. I think it stems from the problem I discussed above: that there was so much to throw in, and not enough development. George didn't know how to make it all work without expositional dialogue. THe problem is, I don't have the answer either. I think TPM works as a movie, albeit its problems, but I don't know what to axe, what to add or what to change outright to make the movie 'better'. We know Yoda's being digitized, but that's merely cosmetic. I know there's going to be some editing changes when George issues the next release, I'm curious what they will be - there's a few scenes that should definately hit the floor (Jar Jar talking to Padme during the R2 cleaning scene is completely meaningless), but maybe there's a few more additions in store to smooth the story from I-VI? Who knows...but time will tell.

End Rant. I was bored.

[ETandElliott]

I really wish Binks didn't exist in most of the film, as he pisses on so much of it. One example is the scene in Watto's shop, which is loaded with unnecessary Jar Jar hijinks. It's the equivalent of having C-3PO doing cartwheels around ANH. I still find it unbelievable Lucas thought that shit was a good idea. With each viewing, things always irk me: Jah Jah, the Gungas, all of Anakin's dialogue, alien farting, weird muppet Grover Yoda, the Jedi and Darth Maul stopped behind the beams and just sitting there not speaking to each other.

[CoGro]

Johnny's score IS the most complete score in the PT. Very thematic, alot of terrific cues and motifs - though it gets butchered in the end battle. I wish some of those themes were allowed to develop and mature in the other two films...it's a true shame. It's probably number one on my wishlist for any revision to the PT.

Watto was definately the best CG character in this film, and arguably the PT. He's given the best dialogue and a terrific voice actor in Secombe. Rob Coleman loved Watto best, and it showed in the details.

I still think the digital work in TPM is nop notch, but I have to say that what was done in AOTC and to a greater degree ROTS is truly remarkable. Yes, there are shots in TPM that are made for you to go 'wow' - this is the opening chapter in the series after all. It's what I meant by describing the film's strength as a spectacle. We as an audience don't really appreciate what was accomplished in these three films from an FX standpoint. What was done in TPM was done a hell of a lot easier and better by ROTS. Each film tried new things, which is where you may get some 'off shots', but its like the visual progession from ANH to ROTJ - by the third film they hadn't changed the methods, they just got really really good at them - which is why you get an out of this world space battle in Jedi with hundreds of different elements as opposed to a few dozen at best.

Personally, I think casting Natalie in hindsight was a mistake. She doesn't turn in a solid performance in any of the three films. She has moments in all three, mostly in Sith where she actually emotes, but overall I don't think she ever embraced the role. And I don't think for a second it was 'George's bad direction'. She looks excited one scene and the living dead in others....far from the 'angel' we're supposed to see her as in order to understand Anakin's love for her. Her pretty face doesn't get her by. In Menace, she doesn't have much to do, but she can't even read her Padme lines with oomph. She just does them, very uninterested in what she's doing.

I watch the rest of the saga alot, and it's just a no brainer to me that TPM is at the bottom. I wrestle with putting AOTC down there for some of the truly embarassing scenes (3P0 factory, a few of the love scenes) not to mention the completely unprofessional way the music was handled, but there's such inconsistency and non-development in the plot that even AOTC surpasses it. From a filmic point of view, TPM's fundamentals are the worst - screenwriting, direction and acting. The Star Wars fan in me enjoys it, but the critic in me shakes his head or questions the film too often.

[KneelbfZod]

Great posts, I enjoyed reading them.

I think with a few well placed cuts TPM can flow a little better. There really is no excuse for Jar Jar. I don't know what Lucas was thinking. Really. I mean does he not have one person working for him that said, "Hey this sucks!" I mean damn. I am so disgusted I cannot watch TPM to this day anymore. Last time I saw it was before Clones came out and I may never watch it again.

[Ternian]

TPM was boring.

The story was politically confusing for the average viewer right from the get go. After watching AotC, I wondered why the Separatist crisis didnt start the Saga out - instead we go a tax issue that was perplexing to the last whereas a formation of a new government body would have been easier to understand.

Darth Maul was pointless. I never liked this character - he was a merchandising tool just like General Grievous. I would have much prefered to see the dissent of Jedi Master Dooku into a battle between him, Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon.

Tatooine's appearance annoyed me as well. A barran, desloate planet with no major reason for existence, suddenly became the arena for a major sporting event for the outer rim territories. Couldn't we have had a brand new planet for this? I liked the pod race and Watto, but I just hated the location - especially considering some of the awesome locations designed by Tiemens and Church for RotS. Naboo should have been sent to AotC only, and Geonosis should have been sent to the end of TPM starting the Clone Wars right away rather than leaving it until the end of AotC. It was a shame some of the offices of Chancellor Valorum couldnt have been introduced in TPM along with more of the key Senatorial figures that would become prominent later on.

Jar Jar Binks was pointless. Natalie Portman sucked as Queen Amidala - GL picked the wrong girl here. Kiera Knightly could have been awesome, but I have to admit that Rose Byrne would have been the ULTIMATE Amidala.

[ETandElliott]

I guess my tastes are just bizarrely different. I think AOTC, with its embarrassingly awful romance, convoluted and boring mystery plot about ordering clone armies and gladiatorial matches hosted by humanoid termites who build Death Stars, is just a bad movie in general. It's the Star Trek V of the Star Wars series for me. There's a lot to dislike in TPM, but it can never top my dislike of AOTC.

[thecolorsblend]

I like 'em all.

I thought one neat thing TPM did was show us how small Luke's life had been prior to hooking up with Ben. He really was stuck in the middle of nowhere, esp compared to goings-on with exotic planets like Coruscant, Naboo, etc. Moreover the viewer gets to see why the transition from the Republic to the Empire mattered so much. In ROTJ, we see the Emperor deciding Imperial procedure arbitrarily while the Republic encompassed the Senate and, by extension, many other points of view through democratic discussion and debate.

It's a great little history lesson.

The Jedi Council discussion of the Sith might've been useful had it been a bit more in depth ("the Sith!??! Holy lightsabers, Yodaman! The *last* time we heard from those guys, wow, it was a WAR! Their so committed to the Dark Side that we Jedi have no excuse but to whack 'em on sight. BUT YOU'RE OUT OF ORDER, QUI-GON! THE SITH ARE ALL DEAD, WE JEDI KNOW EVERYTHING, IF AN ITEM ISN'T IN OUR ARCHIVES IT EITHER SUCKS OR IT DOESN'T EXIST!" blah blah blah). But on the whole, Reel 6 of TPM pretty much lays out the Sith ambition in short order anyway so that scene might've been a bit redundant. But whatever.

Jar Jar is okay. He's the Useful Idiot. Kids like him, yeah, but really nobody else (either in the film or outside of it) seems to. Ironically, the only person who validates Jar Jar's existence in the smallest way is Anakin ("keep away from those energy binders" and his discussion about his feelings of Padme in AOTC).

The best part of TPM is comparing it to the OT and asking yourself how the galaxy could slide from a representative democracy like the Republic to the war-torn Empire we saw in the "later" three films. It did create a sense of intrigue in that sense.

Moreover, there's a caste system in place which you can't really appreciate until you see the other movies. Anakin and Jar Jar, two important characters in the film, are basically treated like pond scum because they don't have any cache with the upper echelon. That changes a *lot* in AOTC, but in TPM Anakin is initially ignored by both the Jedi and the Republic leadership. The same is true for Jar Jar. In fact, it seems the only reason the Jedi Council even allowed Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon to return to Naboo with the Queen was to find out the truth behind the attacker Qui-Gon faced on Tatooine. Had it not been for that, you wonder if the Council would have cared in the slightest what became of Queen Amidala and the Naboo.

Overall, I greatly enjoyed it. I really enjoyed TPM back in 1999 but it really resonates now that the saga is complete.

[Ternian]

AotC had too much story. Take all the Naboo invasion from TPM, put it together with the assassination on the Naboo Senator - all during the Clone War crisis, and you have a much more solid story.

[Longtime_Sunshine]

It's pretty pointless and stupid to create your own stories about what AOTC or TPM could/should have been, especially in this thread/

[flaxer]

It's the equivalent of having C-3PO doing cartwheels during the scene where Luke meets Ben in ANH.

You made me shoot soda out my nose.


Great thread.

I thought Portman's performance was quite bad throughout the trilogy as well, except for a few moments in ROTS when she is confronting Anakin on Mustafar (sp?).

However, I did enjoy her acting when she was pretending to be the one of the queens aid's for the most part. It wasn't great, but it was tolerable.

CoGro has some good points about establishing the Sith being the ultimate evil, and I wish they had more scene's of the jedi discussing the return of the ultimate evil.

Mace Windo's/Jackson's lines were just god aweful terribly written, especially the scene in which he tell's Jinn to go hunt down the dark warrior (man, its been to long since I've watched the movie, so I'm messing alot of names up here).

Loose the Gungan's, add some dialog about how bad the Sith were (are), give Maul a few more lines, and fix a bit of the dialog/delivery in the movie, and it could have been a whole lot better (not that I hated it or anything)

[thecolorsblend]

I thought Natalie did what she needed to do for TPM and AOTC. No complaints here. She was regal when necessary and alive, vibrant and emotional as well.

ROTS, on the other hand, felt like she phoned it in. Her scene with Obi-Wan played well as she seemed to be in shock (or maybe she was just bored and I interpret it as shock) but I can't find much else in her ROTS performance (even the deleted scenes) that I thought was so great.

Odd too considering that everyone else brought their game.

[CoGro]

See, I feel completely the opposite.

In Sith, I think she easily delivers her most emotive performance of the saga...she shows more than one expression on her face in 2 hours. I remember sitting in the theatre when I saw the film for the first time and breathing a sigh of relief at her first scene with Anakin at the Senate...she actually spoke in non-monotone! I was wowed. In fact, I maintain that was the best love scene of the entire prequel trilogy - at least the most natural.

In TPM, she's a kid. Her character allows her bleak performance to work, but it was nothing special. Bottom line, she never conveyed the stern confidence that Carrie Fisher did as a female lead. In AOTC, she has ONE moment of decent acting and it's during the picnic when her and Anakin are talking about democracy. She has this retarded gaze throughout the entire film (and in one scene in ROTS where Anakin is telling her that "Obi-wan and the council don't trust me")

And the entire first part of that scene with Obi-wan and Padme is awkward. Ewan's a little cheesy, the dialogue isn't so great, the direction is weak and Natalie is...well...classic Star Wars Natalie. It only becomes a good scene when Obi-wan sits beside Padme and says, "Padme, I must find him".

[ETandElliott]

Anakin's theme becoming Darth Vader's theme (or hinting at it anyway) during the end credits is brilliant.

[CoGro]

Anakin's theme becoming Darth Vader's theme (or hinting at it anyway) during the end credits is brilliant.

I absolutely agree.

Too bad it never found an appropriate moment in the film - except when Shmi kisses Anakin after he wins the race...but even then it's not so noticeable.

Maybe it could have been used during the temple scenes with Anakin and the council?

[rhonderoo]

I agree on this. That last little bit was great.

[Ternian]

Natalie was good in RotS - except for the final confrontation scene between her and Anakin and she sucked at it. I think her stand out scene for RotS was when she tried to get Anakin to get the Chancellor to return his powers to the Senate. Her other great scenes were obviously cut...

[Ayatollah Krispies]

Natalie is one of those actors who needs to be told what to do in order to bring off a believable performance, and unfortunately coaching actors is one of Lucas's outstanding weaknesses as a director.

I saw TPM again recently myself, and I agree with practically everything that CoGro had to say in his opening post. I've grown to tolerate the Gungans (I have no choice, unless I want to wear out the Skip button on my remote), but they do pretty much bear the "COMIC RELIEF" stamp right on their foreheads. Otherwise I think (and always have thought) that TPM was an excellent prologue to the overall series. You can play the "If I had written it" game all you want, but judging it on its own merits, in light (and in hindsight) of what Lucas was trying to accomplish, I think it's a very strong chapter. Darth Maul is a near-flawless character, with perfection only denied because he stood there with his thumb up his ass when Obi-Wan leaped out of the melting pit.

[KneelbfZod]

You can play the "If I had written it" game all you want

Well everyone, the fans, the press, everyone plays that game with TPM. It was even featured as one ofthe 25 worst sequels of all time in Entertainment Weekly. They complained about the Trade Federation plot. I do too. The universe was much too small in TPM. Like I give a shit about taxing of a trade route. Get me some ACTION with a cause I CARE ABOUT.

[Ayatollah Krispies]

It was even featured as one of the 25 worst sequels of all time in Entertainment Weekly.

EW's stance toward Star Wars is so friggin' hypocritical that it's hardly worth discussing. They've got a couple of hardcore AICN-type geeks on staff (Dalton Ross, and the other loser's name escapes me at the moment) who make it their business to take shots at Star Wars whenever possible, while at the same time the editors of the magazine choose to cover-feature every insignificant fart that blows out of Lucas's hole. That "25 worst sequels" somehow didn't manage to feature any of the Pink Panther movies made after Peter Sellers' death, any of the later Roger Moore Bonds, Superman IV or Alien Resurrection -- but TPM made it there? Bullshit.

They complained about the Trade Federation plot. I do too. The universe was much too small in TPM. Like I give a shit about taxing of a trade route. Get me some ACTION with a cause I CARE ABOUT.

I didn't have a problem with this, and to this day don't understand why people still call it confusing. To each his own though.

[KneelbfZod]

I didn't have a problem with this, and to this day don't understand why people still call it confusing. To each his own though.

I never said it was confusing, I said it was insignificant compared to the larger struggles we are used to seeing in Star Wars.

[CoGro]

I never said it was confusing, I said it was insignificant compared to the larger struggles we are used to seeing in Star Wars.

That was the point. This is a different trilogy with a different story arc.
In my opinion, it's much deeper than that of the OT. Had it been pulled off with a little more flash and flair and a little less fart and shit jokes people wouldn't be complaining about it today.

On a side note: You know what I think contributed to this feeling that the galaxy got 'smaller' all of a sudden? The lack of importance given to secondary and tertiary characters. In almost every scene, in fact I think every scene in TPM, we have a primary character leading the action. In the OT, the scenes almost write themselves since the action and drama is distributed between different factions - the Empire, the Alliance etc. It's a more story based trilogy wheras the PT is more character driven.

[KneelbfZod]

It's a more story based trilogy wheras the PT is more character driven.

Very true, too bad the characters where not complelling enough in TPM, outside of Palpatine, Qui-Gon, and Watto.

[thecolorsblend]

CoGro,

I read an Insider interview with Lucas about the time AOTC was released where he characterized the OT as being more character-driven while the PT was more plot-driven... the exact opposite of what you said.

As for the political stuff, I don't understand why people bitch and moan about this. How the hell else could the Republic shift towards being the Empire without some sort of political intrigue? I mean, a lot of fans seem to have wanted to see that happen... but unless there are political issues involved then it can't really happen. *Something* political has to be the catalyst.

I don't get it.

[CoGro]

CoGro,

I read an Insider interview with Lucas about the time AOTC was released where he characterized the OT as being more character-driven while the PT was more plot-driven... the exact opposite of what you said.

I remember the same article and I thought it reflected what I said...

Fair enough, but I would suggest that the entire thrust of the PT is predicated on rise and fall of Darth Vader and the rise of Senator Palpatine to Emperor of the galaxy.

The characters undergo enormous change in each film...Anakin from a boy, to a teen to an adult; Padme from a queen to a senator to a....bitch who gives birth; Obi-wan from a Padawan to a knight to a master and so it goes. The characters drive the plot of each movie, not the events.

In the OT, I think the events speak for themselves:
ANH - we gotta destroy the death star
ESB - we gotta escape the Empire
ROTJ - we gotta destroy the death star and defeat the empire to bring peace to the galaxy

[thecolorsblend]

CoGro,

I read an Insider interview with Lucas about the time AOTC was released where he characterized the OT as being more character-driven while the PT was more plot-driven... the exact opposite of what you said.

I remember the same article and I thought it reflected what I said...

Fair enough, but I would suggest that the entire thrust of the PT is predicated on rise and fall of Darth Vader and the rise of Senator Palpatine to Emperor of the galaxy.

The characters undergo enormous change in each film...Anakin from a boy, to a teen to an adult; Padme from a queen to a senator to a....bitch who gives birth; Obi-wan from a Padawan to a knight to a master and so it goes. The characters drive the plot of each movie, not the events.

In the OT, I think the events speak for themselves:
ANH - we gotta destroy the death star
ESB - we gotta escape the Empire
ROTJ - we gotta destroy the death star and defeat the empire to bring peace to the galaxy

I can see that. But character interaction drives the OT.

The PT, on the other hand, is continually advanced by preceding events.

TPM- Trade Federation blockade leads to invasion leads to skirmish leads to Queen's escape leads to Tatooine leads to podrace leads to Anakin's freedom leads to lightsaber duel leads to Coruscant leads to vote of no confidence leads to return to Naboo leads to revolution and fight against the Sith leads to Qui-Gon's death leads to Obi-Wan being promoted and becoming Anakin's new master.

I don't have the energy for the other two but you get the basic idea.

I'm not contradicting you, just enjoying the discussion.

[MannyOrtez]

I've never really understood why TPM got all the criticism it did. Yes, Jar Jar is annoying and yes Jake Lloyd occassionally sucks a brick at acting, but at least for me, neither really hindered my enjoyment of the film.

I tend to disagree about Portman, CoGro, though I guess I've never considered Padme being played by someone else - I think Natalie did a pretty good job in TPM, though she didn't give Padme quite enough life to contrast her from Amidala - it was a great dualistic character, she didn't quite get it right. Nonetheless, I still think Padme's character in TPM is probably one of the best characters in the entire saga in terms of an individual film.

Likewise, the Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan relationship was fun to watch, too. I look back on TPM with a lot of fondness and always enjoy watching it. It doesn't have the drama or darkness of what is to come, but as a standalone movie, it is entertaining and solid in its own right.

As for the character driven versus plot driven...I suppose I'll be disagreeing with colorsblend (and apparently George Lucas) and seconding everything CoGro has said on the matter. Though its pretty complicated and I can buy either argument.

Whether or not its character driven, the characters in the PT are a hell of a lot more complicated than in the OT. They might not be as entertaining, but they are definitely more interesting (for the most part, it's really hard to beat Han Solo's character in ANH or ESB). In fact, one of the reasons ROTJ is probably on the bottom of my list is that the characters, with the exception of Luke, have already gone through all the change they will undergo in the trilogy. Leia and Han just go through the motions of the plot in ROTJ. You never really see that in the PT, characters and their relationships are always in play.

[Dark Lord of the Mitch]

I just want to second most of what CoGro said at the beginning, he hit it on the head. I just watched TPM a few weeks ago myself and it dawned on me that I now enjoy TPM over AOTC, a point I never thought I'd reach in my life. I thought the pacing was much better than AOTC and, as hard as it is to believe, had less dumbass humor (that 3PO droid factory/3PO in the Geonosis battle REALLY pisses me off). I still really hate shit and fart jokes in a Star Wars movie though.

I think the Gungans could have worked, just remove Jar Jar and that stupid voice they would've been taken more seriously.

I also agree with what a lot of people have said regarding Watto being the best CGI character (other than Yoda I guess). The scene in AOTC when Anakin is looking for his mother and Watto realizes he's talking to Anakin is probably the most real acting in that scene.

If some of the story from AOTC had been shifted to TPM I think that would have helped the entire trilogy. Have the formation of the CIS in TPM and some of the other suggestions above. I think I would leave Dooku's appearance until AOTC because one of his motivations for being in the CIS was the death of Qui-Gon.

[thecolorsblend]

I think the Gungans could have worked, just remove Jar Jar and that stupid voice they would've been taken more seriously.

What is it about Jar Jar's character and performance that makes you think Lucas intended him to be taken seriously?

[Raveers]

I think Lucas himself compared Jar Jar to kids who get picked on alot and or are considered outcasts. thecolorsblend has it right Jar Jar isn't supposed to be taken seriously. Lucas put in Jar Jar because a lot of kids today can relate to him.

I know I was picked on a lot in junior high and some times in elementary and I was a bit of an outcast but still....

Jar Jar bothered me a bit at first but I've grown to like him and I don't mind him at all now.

[Dark Lord of the Mitch]

The problem I have with Jar Jar is he basically adds nothing to any scene he is in. He actually detracts from some scenes (i.e. Watto's shop and at the dinner table of Anakin's house). Jar Jar would be more tolerable if they didn't have him doing the slapstick comedy in EVERY SCENE. I think you can make a goofy character or a naive character and not have to do the cheap laugh crap. Slapstick has its place and it is not in a Star Wars movie.

What I was referring to with the voice of the Gungans is that its basically English with a south Jamaican accent. In the original trilogy there were a variety of alien languages (Jawa, Tusken, Rodian and the others at the Cantina, Huttese, Ewok, all of Jabba's palace) and in the prequels there were very few alien languages. I don't know if that was done intentionally or was just laziness. If most of the alien species spoke a language other than English it would've made the characters more believable and real.

I'm just really nit picky about some shit apparently

[MannyOrtez]

The problem I have with Jar Jar is he basically adds nothing to any scene he is in. He actually detracts from some scenes (i.e. Watto's shop and at the dinner table of Anakin's house). Jar Jar would be more tolerable if they didn't have him doing the slapstick comedy in EVERY SCENE. I think you can make a goofy character or a naive character and not have to do the cheap laugh crap. Slapstick has its place and it is not in a Star Wars movie.

What I was referring to with the voice of the Gungans is that its basically English with a south Jamaican accent. In the original trilogy there were a variety of alien languages (Jawa, Tusken, Rodian and the others at the Cantina, Huttese, Ewok, all of Jabba's palace) and in the prequels there were very few alien languages. I don't know if that was done intentionally or was just laziness. If most of the alien species spoke a language other than English it would've made the characters more believable and real.

Great points - I strongly believe the Gungans should've something other than English. It would've turned them from goofy to noble.

I'm OK w Jar Jar for the most part, his usage in scenes range from annoying, to superflous, to acceptable. IE, the dinner scene = annoying; most scenes = superflous; acceptable = scene w/ Queen on Coruscant talking about droid army. He adds things thematically, and like someone said, he's a character kids can relate to, but Lucas being someone so concerned with just telling the story, I'm really surprised he was so adamant about putting Jar Jar in scenes where he simply had no reason to be there.

Yet, he cuts the family scenes with Padme in AOTC, which essentially explain her entire motivation for the entire friggin film, and show she is attracted to Anakin, something the rest of the film and Portman did only moderately well. TPM and AOTC were both hurt in the editing room, of course, ROTS actually went from great to even better in the editing room.

[Ternian]

Jar Jar was there to fluff out a very, very thin story.

[thecolorsblend]

Jar Jar was there to fluff out a very, very thin story.

Jar Jar played an indispensable role in TPM. He guided the Jedi to Theed and united the Naboo with the Gungans, which not only enabled them to win the battle against the Federation, but it instigated a massive social change the likes of which Naboo had probably never experienced.

Call Jar Jar whatever you want but he wasn't fluff.

[Topeka]

Jar Jar leading the Jedi to the gungan city was a very reasonable plot point. I think he was even pretty likeable in his first five minutes of screen time. However, his story should have ended there. There really wasn't a need for him after they left Otoh Gunga.

What purpose does he serve after that? Nothing except comic relief and giving Amidala the idea to enlist the gungans to fight. With a little more thought, she could still have just as easily united the Naboo people without Jar Jar tagging along.

Now, I like Jar Jar. I think some of his gags are actually funny. I just don't think he was used in the most efficient way in the script.

[KneelbfZod]

Jar Jar was there to fluff out a very, very thin story.

Jar Jar played an indispensable role in TPM. He guided the Jedi to Theed and united the Naboo with the Gungans, which not only enabled them to win the battle against the Federation, but it instigated a massive social change the likes of which Naboo had probably never experienced.

Call Jar Jar whatever you want but he wasn't fluff.

The Jedi were supposed to be negotiators, they could have gotten the Gungans and Naboo to work together, with the Queen' help. You're telling me the JEDI, the fking JEDI, need a retarded walking fish to HELP THEM win a battle? C'mon......

[ETandElliott]

Not to mention that General Jar Jar crap was even more irritating to watch than Ewoks slinging rocks into themselves and lassoing speeder bikes.

[thecolorsblend]

Jar Jar was there to fluff out a very, very thin story.

Jar Jar played an indispensable role in TPM. He guided the Jedi to Theed and united the Naboo with the Gungans, which not only enabled them to win the battle against the Federation, but it instigated a massive social change the likes of which Naboo had probably never experienced.

Call Jar Jar whatever you want but he wasn't fluff.

The Jedi were supposed to be negotiators, they could have gotten the Gungans and Naboo to work together, with the Queen' help. You're telling me the JEDI, the fking JEDI, need a retarded walking fish to HELP THEM win a battle? C'mon......

Their mandate was not to reunite the Naboo with the Gungans. The Jedi Council sent Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan back to Naboo with the Queen to investigate "the mystery of the Sith", ostensibly while protecting the Queen. There's nothing in their orders about preventing a war. In fact, it's in the best interest of the Council if a war *does* break out so that Darth Maul would be forced to resurface. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan's collective hands were tied.

Face it, without Jar Jar and the Gungans, the queen's security service would've been wiped out. After that, it's doubtful that either Jedi (assuming they survived) could've escaped from Naboo to rally for reinforcements (as if any were available).

It's okay not to like the Gungans, but you can't say they and Jar Jar weren't essential to the story Lucas wrote.

[Ayatollah Krispies]

It's okay not to like the Gungans, but you can't say they and Jar Jar weren't essential to the story Lucas wrote.

The plot function that Jar Jar served was essential. His unfunny, dipshit, annoying, distracting behavior was not.

One of the greatest differences between the OT and the PT is the natural humor of the former and the forced, failed humor of the latter. For me, the single funniest moment of the PT was Hayden's ironic delivery of the line "I'm deeply sorry, Master" after letting Zam elude get away during the speeder chase in AOTC. For many, many others, it was Anakin apparently having a wet dream about his mom in the same movie. Jar Jar rarely shows up on anyone's list.

[Ternian]

The whole plot around employing the Gungans to fight is fluff too. Its the same plot point that surfaced in AotC - to get the Clones to fight for the Republic/get Gungans to fight for Naboo.

As for fluff - I believe several AotC plot points would have made a better TPM. A better TPM could have been:

1) The Separatist Crisis opens the movie - but not including the commerce guilds.

2) Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan are secretly sent by Chancellor Valorum to bring the separatists back into Republic.

3) The Separatists attempt to kill the Jedi before negotiations begin.

4) The Jedi discover a huge delivery of battle droids arriving on the planet.

5) The pair of Jedi escape from the Separatist leaders with the help of a young slave boy called Anakin Skywalker.

6) The Jedi, along with Anakin, try to discover the source of the battle droids as they escape the planet hidden on a secret military freighter.

7) The freigther lands on the planet of Geonosis. The Jedi discover a huge battle droid factory. They relay the information back to the Chancellor.

8) Introduce the Loyalist Committee led by a young Senator Amidala who puts the pressure on the Chancellor Valorum to end the Separatist crisis. The Committee includes Senator Palpatine. Senator Organa notes that local planetary security forces are no match for a battle army. Yoda states 'do their duty, the Jedi will" - as long as the Chancellor agrees.

9) Chancellor Valorum refuses to send the Jedi to end the crisis. Palpatine suggests Amidala nominate to pass a 'vote of no confidence' in the Senate. She does and Palpatine is elected as the new Chancellor. He immediately calls upon the Jedi to close down the Separatist droid factory.

10) Master Dooku is unhappy with the Jedi taking on a role to get involved and leaves the Council in defiance.

11) The Jedi arrive at the droid factories of Geonosis. A battle begins.

12) Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan discover that Dooku has turned to the Dark Side of the Force. They try to kill him, but Qui-Gon is killed and Dooku escapes. Qui-Gon asks that Obi-Wan train Anakin to become a Jedi.

13) The movie ends with Chancellor Palpatine standing with the Masters of the Jedi Council and the Loyalist Committee, watching 10000 Jedi leaving to protect the planets still loyal to the Republic.


----> this kinda relieves the plot jungle of AotC and creates a stronger base for TPM (in my opinion of course ).

[MannyOrtez]

That's all pretty good, but what would happen in AOTC? I agree more could have happened in TPM and less in AOTC, but how much more?

[Ternian]

AotC would go something like this:

1) Senator Amidala, leader of the Loyalists, returns to Coruscant and an assassination attempt takes place. Amidala is stopping the formation of an army to protect the republic from the hands of the Separatist battle droid armies. She continues to rely upon the Jedi and local planetary forces to stop attacks by the Separatists.

2) A meeting with Chancellor Palpatine reveals that the Jedi numbers are dwindling and Amidala fears that the commerce guilds are joining the separatist.

3) Anakin and Obi-Wan are assigned to protect Amidala.

3) Amidala is nearly killed again. Obi-Wan is assigned to track down the bounty hunter who tried to kill her while Anakin and Amidala are sent back to Amidala's home planet of Naboo.

4) Anakin and Amidala fall for each other on Naboo and the love story unfolds.

5) Meanwhile Obi-Wan tracks down the bounty hunter to Kamino where he discovers a Clone Army being made for the Separatists. He advises the Chancellor.

6) The Separatists make a surprising attack against Naboo and capture the Queen. Anakin and Padme escape and return to Coruscant.

7) With not enough Jedi left to defend the peaceful and planet of Naboo, Palpatine is given emergency powers. He takes control of the Clone Army and sends them throughout the galaxy to force the separatists back into the Republic.

8) Amidala returns to Naboo and fights with the people. With the help of the Clone Army, Naboo is saved but the wave of war now sweeps across the galaxy.

9) Amidala and Anakin secretly marry.

10) The Clone War begins.

[Raveers]

I guess I'm in the minority where I don't have a problem with any of the 6 films. I just watch to enjoy em'.

I mean I know they have flaws but what movie doesn't?

[MannyOrtez]

I agree with you Raveers, I love all 6, but I do like analyzing the films and imagining how else they could've gone down for shits and gigs. I think Ternian proposes a pretty legit plot, and his AOTC basically contains all the key points AOTC has anyway, but a lot of exposition was put into TPM. That said, I still prefer the film and the way it went down. It's just fun to think of options.

We all had our own visions for the PT long before GL made them, sometimes its fun to look back on what we thought would happen at given stages in the waiting for the films.

[KneelbfZod]

I like Ternian's version. I just think Episode II should have been Ep. I, and then we could have spent more time on Anakin's turn. Episode I was basically a waste which ultimately made Ep. III a little rushed and too much to cram into one movie. I still love the films, but really the more I think about it, the more I hate Ep I.

[ETandElliott]

I thought the Clone Wars animated series told a better Anakin story than AOTC. But that's me.

[KneelbfZod]

I thought the Clone Wars animated series told a better Anakin story than AOTC. But that's me.

I'm not sure if it's ironic, or just sad that other writers (Clone Wars Cartoons) and fans can write better Star Wars stories (for the prequels anyway) than Lucas. Lucas was inspired and creative once, but I fear he ran out of that by 1999.

[thecolorsblend]

I thought the Clone Wars animated series told a better Anakin story than AOTC. But that's me.

I'm not sure if it's ironic, or just sad that other writers (Clone Wars Cartoons) and fans can write better Star Wars stories (for the prequels anyway) than Lucas. Lucas was inspired and creative once, but I fear he ran out of that by 1999.

[KneelbfZod]

:whateva:

Do you have a point?

[thecolorsblend]

:whateva:

Do you have a point?

Besides meaning that your post was cliche masturbatory sheep crap?

No, not really.

[Raveers]

:whateva:

Do you have a point?

Besides meaning that your post was cliche masturbatory sheep crap?

No, not really.

I definitely agree with this statement. To think that fans believe they know how the Prequels could have been made better than their original creator is pure ludicrous. A lot of these 'ideas' I've read are very stupid and deserves a "WTF".

If you guys are really this disatisfied with the way how the Prequels turned out...I just have three words to say "quit watching them".

Yes there is such a thing as analizing the films but when you guys start tossing up wet sheep fantasy dreams about how the Prequels could have been better in "your own vision" then it becomes over analizing and pretty fucking stupid.

As I have said, I have no problem with the way how the Prequels and the Original Trilogy turned out and I enjoy watching them. They are just films after all, not a part of our daily lives. They're ment for us to sit down and enjoy them.

Most of todays new generation of kids don't really give a fuck about your 'visions' on how the Prequels or the rest of the Trilogy could have been. They're happy with the way how things turned out and think the whole Saga is pretty fucking sweet. Only to those who clinge to the past think things should have been differently.

Edited for typos.