Anakin's Fall

[MannyOrtez]

I think ROTS has enough in it to justify Anakin's turn as a standalone movie, I don't see it as being a "180" as fans do, the whole movie sets up that he's not too happy with the whole Jedi's way of thinking and that maybe Sith suits him right. I think the turn was just different from what fans were expecting based on ROTJ.

I think it's AOTC that drops the ball. Aside from slaughtering the Tuskens, we don't really see him start turning to the dark side until he kills Dooku in ROTS. Sure, GL will tell us that his falling in love is making him selfish and self interested and whatnot, but big deal. There should've been a lot more conflict in AOTC in regards to Anakin's turn, the entire climax fails to deal with the issue. The Dark Side should've been something he wrestled with in the middle act, and temporarily resists before succumbing in EIII. It's a real shame. TPM and ROTS are perfect in terms of Anakin's character, and AOTC is as well, but only for 90 minutes.

I'm not sure I can argue with the "PT could be told better" part, b/c as much as I like Lucas, he's not the best storyteller. He's the ideas man. He's also great with the images and the cutting of said images, but he gets lazy with the specifics. And while I love the PT, I do think it could've been better, but it's his films, and he can do what he wants with them, just like Jackson does with him. I respect Jackson for that, he and Lucas are alike in that respect.

[thecolorsblend]

IMO, I think ROTS has enough in it to justify Anakin's turn as a standalone movie, I don't see it as being a "180" as fans do, the whole movie sets up that he's not too happy with the whole Jedi's way of thinking and that maybe Sith suits him right. I think the turn was just different from what fans were expecting based on ROTJ. I think it's AOTC that drops the ball. Aside from slaughtering the Tuskens, we don't really see him start turning to the dark side until he kills Dooku in ROTS. Sure, GL will tell us that his falling in love is making him selfish and self interested and whatnot, but big deal. There should've been a lot more conflict in AOTC in regards to Anakin's turn, the entire climax fails to deal with the issue. The Dark Side should've been something he wrestled with in the middle act, and temporarily resists before succumbing in EIII. It's a real shame. TPM and ROTS are perfect in terms of Anakin's character, and AOTC is as well, but only for 90 minutes.

I'm not sure I can argue with the "PT could be told better" part, b/c as much as I like Lucas, he's not the best storyteller. He's the ideas man. He's also great with the images and the cutting of said images, but he gets lazy with the specifics. And while I love the PT, I do think it could've been better, but it's his films, and he can do what he wants with them, just like Jackson does with him. I respect Jackson for that, he and Lucas are alike in that respect.

It's yours to believe all that but I loved Anakin's crossroads in AOTC. He feels like an outsider, different and, in his mind, better than his peers. He's smarter, more powerful, younger, far more in tune with his feelings and intuition, etc. AOTC sets all that up beautifully. ROTS then shows him what his options are.

Anakin's problem is that he only saw himself in the best possible terms and never once considered how self-centered he'd become. AOTC, in setting up Anakin's worldview, political persuasions, passions and such is what made his turn in ROTS possible. I think the three work beautifully together in that regard. I do wish there'd been a bit more visual continuity between AOTC and ROTS, but as it stands I'm happy with the PT.

The fact that it's devoid of hobbits and masturbatory slow-mo shots is sort of a bonus.

[Raveers]

Also Anakin started turning to the Dark Side in AOTC when he slaughtered the tusken raiders. Palpatine too had been slowly manipulating him and even manipulated him even more and in ROTS so hence the way how he turned. Palpatine is a powerful mofo and Anakin saw his power and he knew he didn't want to mess with it because he could have ended up like Mace Windu. Also Palpatine manipulated him to kill Dooku that there is another sign of his turning more and more to evil.

The whole part about him telling Padmé that he was stronger than Palpatine and he could over-throw him? Maybe but I think that was just pride and jealousy talking there.

I thought the way how he fully turned in ROTS was handeled great.

Of course we each have our own views on the situation, either take it or leave it. No one is really right on how things should have been except Lucas because he made the movie.

[aclerok]

I agree that they build in a lot of the emotions Anakin is feeling in ROTS and because of this it works. But if you look at it from the point of view of people who aren't thinking about it as deeply as we are then it can definitely seem that his switch is quick. I think that they didn't space it out enough in the movie. One minute he's telling the emporer he's going to turn him in, 15 minutes later he's killing Mace and joining the dark side. Just an issue of bad sequencing in the movie if you ask me.

[MannyOrtez]

I agree that they build in a lot of the emotions Anakin is feeling in ROTS and because of this it works. But if you look at it from the point of view of people who aren't thinking about it as deeply as we are then it can definitely seem that his switch is quick. I think that they didn't space it out enough in the movie. One minute he's telling the emporer he's going to turn him in, 15 minutes later he's killing Mace and joining the dark side. Just an issue of bad sequencing in the movie if you ask me.

There's obviously conflict within Anakin - characters don't always say what they mean or feel in movies, in fact, in a well written one, they rarely do. Clearly when Anakin is telling Palpy he's going to turn him in, there is part of him that is saying he needs Palpy alive. And that part won out. I really, really do not see how that is so hard to follow, yet I see this complaint many times.

I agree, colorsblend & raveers, about AOTC being great for Anakin's character, but like I said, my only beef is that Anakin's story seems to end on Tatooine. I wish Dooku had at least mentioned the dark side and its advantages to Anakin during their battle, just to keep that thread going. I do love all of the stuff that takes place on Tatooine, it's great, and it makes his downfall so clear and understandable (which again, makes me all the more surprised when people say they thought his turn was too quick in ROTS). But I would've liked AOTC's climactic battle to have been as personal and conflicting as ESB's was.

[thecolorsblend]

I agree that they build in a lot of the emotions Anakin is feeling in ROTS and because of this it works. But if you look at it from the point of view of people who aren't thinking about it as deeply as we are then it can definitely seem that his switch is quick. I think that they didn't space it out enough in the movie. One minute he's telling the emporer he's going to turn him in, 15 minutes later he's killing Mace and joining the dark side. Just an issue of bad sequencing in the movie if you ask me.

There's obviously conflict within Anakin - characters don't always say what they mean or feel in movies, in fact, in a well written one, they rarely do. Clearly when Anakin is telling Palpy he's going to turn him in, there is part of him that is saying he needs Palpy alive. And that part won out. I really, really do not see how that is so hard to follow, yet I see this complaint many times.

I agree, colorsblend & raveers, about AOTC being great for Anakin's character, but like I said, my only beef is that Anakin's story seems to end on Tatooine. I wish Dooku had at least mentioned the dark side and its advantages to Anakin during their battle, just to keep that thread going. I do love all of the stuff that takes place on Tatooine, it's great, and it makes his downfall so clear and understandable (which again, makes me all the more surprised when people say they thought his turn was too quick in ROTS). But I would've liked AOTC's climactic battle to have been as personal and conflicting as ESB's was.

Maybe it's just a difference in perspective. Anakin was clearly torn up about what happened on Naboo and Tatooine. I mean, he gets shot down by the girl of his dreams, loses his mother and loses a great big part of his identity by murdering the Tuskens. The conflict is crystalized for me during the battle of Geonosis. When Padme fell out of the ship, Anakin was perfectly willing to let Dooku escape, thereby virtually assuring open warfare between the Republic and the Separatists. A war that would unquestionably kill millions (since this is on a galactic level) and could plunge the entire galaxy into unending chaos.

Anakin was willing to let all of that happen because of his selfishness.

As is stands, Dooku escaped anyway but you can't say that Obi-Wan, Anakin and Yoda didn't do everything in their power to stop that from happening. Which goes back to another point. Any morality Anakin showed in AOTC was brought on strictly by other people. He did good for good's own sake in TPM, but by AOTC he could only make the right moral choice when someone else did his thinking for him. I'm sure a village of slaughtered Tusken Raiders would agree with me. The only difference between Anakin's choices on Tatooine vs. his choices on Geonosis is Obi-Wan.

Frankly, I don't see much difference between all that stuff and Luke's turmoil in ESB... except that perhaps Anakin suffered a lot more. Anakin's choices defaulted to amorality, if not sheer evil, unless a second party intervened. Luke was still capable of making the right moral choice (go save Han and Leia because they're my friends) but for the wrong reasons (half-trained though I am, I'm the only one who can save them). It's a trait that would very nearly cost him everything in ROTJ.

As for ROTS, I'm with you Manny. I found his turn completely in character. The guy was clearly wrestling with the Dark Side from the time he killed Dooku in cold blood until he stormed Palpatine's office. It's worth noting there's a huge difference (at least in Anakin's mind) between turning Palpatine over to the Jedi Council to be arrested and prosecuted and letting Mace kill him. Selling him out to the Council is not in any way the same thing as advocating execution without a trial. Anakin needed him alive... and preferablly "behind bars" (or however one goes about arresting Sith).

[aclerok]

I agree with what you responded to me manny. I think it's done fine. I understand his turning and also think it's pretty obvious and easy to follow. What I was getting at was more that some people don't think about the character and their development not only with their actions that happen on screen, but also the consequences of those actions and how they effect the characters off screen. Obviously Anakin has a ton of time in which he deals whether he gives into the dark side or does things the way the jedi have always told him he should, but the time that they actually show him onscreen struggling with this is quite minimal. I can follow it fine (as all of us and most people should really), but it seems like they could have spread in out more in the timeline of ROTS. Although I will admit this would pretty much be impossible to do along with everything else that needed to get fit into the movie...

[Ternian]

His turn made no sense what-so-ever.

We just have to accept he turned. The reasons were implausible.

[ETandElliott]

In my opinion, Anakin's dark side was shown much better in Clones than in Sith. The Tatooine bit was the only scene where I thought Christensen really nailed it. In Sith, he was just duped into turning to the dark side. His killing Tyranus should have been the point where he turned (like Luke defeating Vader in RotJ), but it was swept under the rug for the rest of the movie and nobody seemed to give a shit. There was real potential there, especially with the final duel in Clones as Manny said.

[Ternian]

I think Hayden nailed it when he returned to Padme before leaving for Mustafar. He had that evil streak to him...awesome acting and directing in that scene.

[Jelperman]

His turn made no sense what-so-ever.

We just have to accept he turned. The reasons were implausible.

:roll:

Anakin starts sliding into darkness before the beginning of Attack of the Clones. He's already having nightmares about his mother and is smitten by Padme. By the end of that movie, Anakin has painted himself into a corner. He has defied his orders repeatedly, murdered an entire village, come out in favor of a dictatorship over democracy, and to top it off he married a Senator. He's in deep shit by the beginning of Revenge of the Sith. He can't go to the Jedi for help (beyond a vague confessional) with his worries about Padme because to do so he would expose his relationship with Padme. He ends up going to the one person who can possibly help and not get him in trouble (or so he thinks). His habit of misinterpreting or ignoring obvious warnings doesn't help, either. The scenes in Palpatine's office don't cause a sudden change, they just force Anakin's hand.

I agree that they build in a lot of the emotions Anakin is feeling in ROTS and because of this it works. But if you look at it from the point of view of people who aren't thinking about it as deeply as we are then it can definitely seem that his switch is quick. I think that they didn't space it out enough in the movie. One minute he's telling the emporer he's going to turn him in, 15 minutes later he's killing Mace and joining the dark side. Just an issue of bad sequencing in the movie if you ask me.

Did you miss the part in between when Palpatine tell Anakin that if he is killed any chance of saving Padme is lost?

Also half of the time I don't understand what the fuck they're staying in the LOTR films...

Oh I KNOW! People say the PT has bad dialog? Have they ever noticed what's in those phonebook screenplays filled with pretentious lyrical cliches? And then there's the screwed up accent Aragorn and others sometimes have but other times don't. LOTR has some good spectacle, but my God is it boring...

Star Wars is like the Saturday Matinee movies of the 1930s-1940s. It's meant to be a spectacle, but it's also meant to be fun and entertaining. LOTR is more like those 3-4 hour biblical epics where everything is oh-so-serious, everyone tries to sound upper class British (with varying degrees of success) and with casts of thousands. In other words, the kinds of movies the Academy has gushed over since the beginning of the talkies.

[SVTCobra]

This thread is about star wars fan boys

[thecolorsblend]

This thread is about star wars fan boys

OMG, I thought this thread was about pie-baking tips.

Thanks, numbnuts!

[Ternian]

Anakin starts sliding into darkness before the beginning of Attack of the Clones. He's already having nightmares about his mother and is smitten by Padme. By the end of that movie, Anakin has painted himself into a corner. He has defied his orders repeatedly, murdered an entire village, come out in favor of a dictatorship over democracy, and to top it off he married a Senator. He's in deep shit by the beginning of Revenge of the Sith. He can't go to the Jedi for help (beyond a vague confessional) with his worries about Padme because to do so he would expose his relationship with Padme. He ends up going to the one person who can possibly help and not get him in trouble (or so he thinks). His habit of misinterpreting or ignoring obvious warnings doesn't help, either. The scenes in Palpatine's office don't cause a sudden change, they just force Anakin's hand.

The problem is that up until the turn, in RotS, we are told that Palpatine knows how to save people. Then, when Anakin turns, Palpatine tells Anakin that he doesn't really know how to save Padme and that he is hoping Anakin and him will work it out together. Why would Anakin pledge himself for something that doesnt exist if the whole reason of him turning is for that existence.

Its hard to digest. I prefer the scripted version. Its far more plausible - Palpatine planting a seed of doubt about Amidala and the Jedi plotting to overthrow the Senate.

[MandalorianWrath]

The problem is that up until the turn, in RotS, we are told that Palpatine knows how to save people.

Why would Anakin pledge himself for something that doesnt exist if the whole reason of him turning is for that existence.

Tell me if I'm wrong, but I recall seeing Anakin slaughter a whole Tusken camp, and as far as I can remember, he does not do that telling to himself "I do that to learn how Palpatine can save Padmé's life". The several elements that take Anakin from one side to the other are not all linked to Palpatine's knowledge. The seeds of the Dark Side are planted within Anakin long before he even starts worrying about Padmé's life (in RotS).

The fact that Palpatine lures him into thinking he can save Padmé is just the cherry on top. It is not The Reason. From my point of view, Anakin is lost to the Dark Side before ROTS. The simple fact that he can now kill unarmed prisoners such as Dooku (Before this whole "JusthelpmesavePadmé'slife" affair) is a revealing fact.

Anakin is an automatic rifle, the various Dark Side acts he performed throughout his life filled his magazine, Palpatine was the trigger. Once Anakin started shooting, he could no longer stop.

[MannyOrtez]

Its hard to digest. I prefer the scripted version. Its far more plausible - Palpatine planting a seed of doubt about Amidala and the Jedi plotting to overthrow the Senate.

I don't think Anakin buys the whole plotting to overthrow the Senate business. I think he just uses that as justification for what he does. He is loyal to the Republic, and I wish GL had played that aspect up a little bit throughout the trilogy, maybe given it close to as equal weight as the other issues in Anakin's mind, as they naturally mirror one another.

I'm OK with Palpatine's "we'll work together" stuff b/c it gives incentive to Anakin to do bad things. If there is a weakest link in Anakin's turn, it's the storming the Jedi Temple scene. I feel Palpatine needs to rile Anakin up before he goes and kills off dozens and dozens of Jedi. We as an audience should probably be reminded all the reasons why Anakin could feel animosity towards the Jedi and how he probably blames them for everything wrong in his life, including Shmi's death and Padme's future death.

But, GL prefers to understate often, and normally it works, and I'd argue it still works. However, if I'm conceeding Ternian anything, and I'm not sure I am, I guess I'd say that he could've been more blatant there.

[ETandElliott]

The film needed the "Anakin, I am your father" scene.

[SI]

It was subtle, but it was there...

[MannyOrtez]

It was subtle, but it was there...

True.

[ETandElliott]

There was no indication at all Anakin knew Palpatine was responsible for his conception.

[aclerok]

There was no indication at all Anakin knew Palpatine was responsible for his conception.

Now I know we've all talked about this before, but is there any cold hard facts that Palpatine was responsible for Anakin's conception? I seems an obvious conclusion with the way Palps is talking in the movie, but then again it seems obvious that he already knows how to save people from death too, which we know isn't true. So I would say that this is maybe just another one of his mind games with Anakin. He tells him a story that relates to how he was created and thereby creates some validity to his story in Anakin's mind and this acts as yet another thing on the scales to push him over the edge and the dark side begins to win the battle in his mind.

[Raveers]

I think Palpatine told Anakin about the creating life thing because it was an opportunity to have Palpatine seduce Anakin even closer to the Dark Side. Maybe Palpatine's master did know how to do that however I highly doubt the Sith had the midi-chlorians create Anakin.

I don't like that idea at all. Ya people will say the book hints towards that however I don't consider the books as 'cannon' and I don't think GL really does either.

[dans]

Ya people will say the book hints towards that however I don't consider the books as 'cannon' and I don't think GL really does either.

The books actually say the opposite, the post ROTS (in both timeline and release) novel Dark Lord does anyway. Anakin was not created by Sidious or Plageuis.

[ETandElliott]

There's no sure answer. Some people believe Palpatine hints at the fact that he created Anakin in the opera scene. However, this is just one vague interpretation. I don't know if anything Palpatine says in his Sith tale is true. Lucas got rid of a scene where Palpatine actually tells Anakin he created him. I like the idea though.

[MannyOrtez]

There's no sure answer. Some people believe Palpatine hints at the fact that he created Anakin in the opera scene. However, this is just one vague interpretation. I don't know if anything Palpatine says in his Sith tale is true. Lucas got rid of a scene where Palpatine actually tells Anakin he created him. I like the idea though.

I do, too, it would've helped convince Anakin that he really should commit to the Dark Side, but it's not particularly necessary I suppose. Just would've been a nice touch. I'm sure Palpatine was lying, I have no doubts about that.

Another question to throw out there is whether or not you feel the Dark Side is addictive in ROTS, as we learn it to be in the originals. While I think Lucas did a topnotch job showing how and why Anakin becomes evil, and how he is able to twist his mind to perceive his evil actions as OK, it's a little more arguable in my mind at least, whether or not we feel the Dark Side is addictive and seductive. I do think Lucas makes power seem tempting and addictive, and certainly, Anakin's attachment to Padme is addict like. But does using the Dark Side ensure further use of the Dark Side? I guess I'm going to say yes now that I think about it, but I actually think Anakin turning evil and Anakin turning to the Dark Side are two slightly different issues. If that makes any sense. And I'm not sure it does.

[thecolorsblend]

I'm glad that any scene that says Palpatine created Anakin was axed.

For one thing, it makes Palpatine an unbeatable enemy. If he's behind every conspiracy, every bad thing that happens, he becomes too powerful a villain.

Second, it defeats the good guys way too early. It's hard to root for the Jedi knowing that literally nothing they do will save them. As it is now, it's obvious things could've been a lot different if the Jedi had made different decisions.

Third, most of all, it absolves Anakin of the guilt of his own choices. If the only reason for his existence is to be a pawn, then Anakin isn't really guilty of killing the Tuskens, the Jedi children, the Separatists, Padme, etc. He was duped, nothing at all is his fault, etc.

Palpatine ain't Anakin's dad.

[Raveers]

I'm glad that any scene that says Palpatine created Anakin was axed.

For one thing, it makes Palpatine an unbeatable enemy. If he's behind every conspiracy, every bad thing that happens, he becomes too powerful a villain.

Second, it defeats the good guys way too early. It's hard to root for the Jedi knowing that literally nothing they do will save them. As it is now, it's obvious things could've been a lot different if the Jedi had made different decisions.

Third, most of all, it absolves Anakin of the guilt of his own choices. If the only reason for his existence is to be a pawn, then Anakin isn't really guilty of killing the Tuskens, the Jedi children, the Separatists, Padme, etc. He was duped, nothing at all is his fault, etc.

Palpatine ain't Anakin's dad.

I completely agree with this statement.

[MannyOrtez]

Palpatine ain't Anakin's dad.

I agree 100%, but it doesn't mean that Palpy can't say he is.

[SI]

he could even influence the midichlorians...to create.....life!

I'm so glad that line was never cut from the movie.

[thecolorsblend]

Palpatine ain't Anakin's dad.

I agree 100%, but it doesn't mean that Palpy can't say he is.

If he's just playing with Anakin's head, sure. There's no indication, however, that Anakin understood Palpatine's line to be a potential confession of Anakin's true origins.

But you're right, of course.

he could even influence the midichlorians...to create.....life!

I'm so glad that line was never cut from the movie.

Me too. Relieved actually. It's a great line and I love the way McDiarmid delivered it.

[yarq]

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[yarq]

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