One Year Later

[CoGro]

It's about a year since the release of the final Star Wars film so lets reflect...

Firstly I'd like to say that I miss the hype. I miss the buildup, the trailers, the media blitz, the spots, the spoilers, the discussion, the predictions, and the bitching. The new era of Star Wars will hopefully give me something to occupy my nerd-sphere.


Now the film...It's definately sunk in for me and has become one with the rest. In the spirit of my other prequel threads, I may as well describe the merits of Episode III.

Revenge of the Sith is a good film. That to me is where it starts and ends - as a piece of cinema it has some great strengths - it does have its flaws, but I think this film clearly appealed to way more than just the Star Wars clique. It may not have been everyone's favourite film of the summer, but the average movie-goer liked this installment.

But us Star Wars fans are usually ultra-critical by nature: we defend defend defend or attack attack attack. For alot of us, Sith was a prophecy in itself: a 'chosen one' hoped to 'restore balance/greatness' to a 'tainted' franchise. In this respect, I think almost more hype was placed on Sith than either of the previous Episodes - an impossible feat - but I think where the film shines, it's successful in doing so.

Sith brought back the genuine thrill the Star Wars gave to an audience. The direction was much tighter and with that we get a more convincing and exciting story to follow. It helped that everyone this time around was on the same page, I think. The goal of the picture was very specific. In addition, Barton brought terrific flow to the picture in the editiing room - the result was a very enjoyable and easy film to watch...there isn't any clutter and the pace really is breakneck.

Like any Star Wars film, I think we tend to imagine what could have been rather than what is and thus set an impossible standard. I really think Sith hit the mark more than it missed. There's the odd acting/directing miscue that I'll still fuss over when I watch the film, but I'm still amazed at how much this film works as compared to Clones or Menace. The opera scene for example transports me back to my childhood...it captures the mysticism and fantasy of the OT perfectly....same with the Dooku confrontation. Not only do I like the story decisions, save a few small points, but the direction was usually pretty on target for me.

I would be the last to say that the PT has turned out the way I imagined it when I first heard it was being made but I guess now that it's all done, I would rather have the technical problems corrected to provide a standard of quality and authenticity I think the prequels lack. Sith has its sound/music issues that I think need correction, albeit not as bad as Clones. This would be my one, fairly reasonable, request - AND to add the qui-gon scene.

[thecolorsblend]

I'm definitely with you about the hype. When I went to see the movie at midnight, there had to have been at least 1200 people there, many of whom were in costumes and such. Star Wars openings have an atmosphere unlike any other and it pains me that we'll never have that again. But what a ride!

As for the film, I think it's largely successful. Lucas crafted it to work either as a standalone film or to give resonance to TPM and AOTC. Frankly, he knocked my socks off in doing that because I would've bet you a million dollars that that couldn't be done. I mostly avoided spoilers for ROTS. It was our last time and I wanted everything to be new.

The score isn't my favorite, but it does have a lot of memorable cues and they all work with the film. After all this time envisioning how Anakin surrendered to the Dark Side, this particular scenario never even crossed my mind. And yet, it's a lot more intruiging than anything I'd ever imagined on my own.

I do wish we'd gotten closure on the Sifo-Dyas mystery from AOTC. I'm learning to make peace with the lack of a Qui-Gon scene, but the Sifo-Dyas thing hurts the PT overall. Granted, it was no huge leap of logic to put the chain of events together (which could be why it was deleted) but Lucas raised the issue in AOTC and, imho, he should've closed it out in ROTS, no matter how obvious the conclusion might've seemed.

The editing is one of the few gripes I have with the film. It seems like none of the scenes have any room to breathe (except for the opera house and maybe a few others). At times, it even seems like we're only getting small pieces of scenes, not complete scenes. I love the movie either way, but I think a more relaxed approach in certain areas would've been beneficial... especially when the shit really hits the fan later on in the movie.

[CoGro]

I've always seen the fast pace of Episode III (Anakin's journey to the dark side) as a stark contrast to Luke's path. It fit the 'quick and easy' routine Yoda outlined and I think the film reflects that. Before you know it, events spin out of control and are impossible to reverse....I liked that about this film.

The score I think could have been stronger and should be touched up where recycled material was used, but I think there's some strong stuff, particularly BOTH, Anakin's burning and the Clone War montage...I would've liked the Sith whisper to be tossed in there along with more of Anakin's theme to connect the Prequels as well as the Death Star motif that we hear in ANH but what can you do...

To me, the film's easily the most entertaining of the prequels and I'd say the easiest to watch in its entirety of the series. Its dull moments are few and there's just a ton of good material.

[Ternian]

RotS was the closest PT episode to the OT - although I think AotC was the best of the PT. But like AotC, the first part of the movie was more interesting than what followed. I loved the space battle but I HATE the General Greivous plot line. I found Anakin's turn uncovincing and I wish the Rebellion scenes had of stayed.

[CoGro]

I've become fascinated with the General Grievous plot...I think he's interesting as a villain. We scrutinize the series too much, I think. It makes enough sense as I'd rather watch Obi-wan fight an interesting alien than Nute Gunray.

I do agree that while the second half of the film is more interesting in terms of story, there's a few directorial decisions I don't agree with...For example, I think the scene in which Anakin turns could have been done more 'audience friendly' ie) more dark, less corny. I also think it would have been more interesting to see Palpatine fight Mace and co with dark force powers than lightsabers....I also would have really excentuated the darkness factor here, making it almost horrifying....same goes for some of Anakin's later scenes. I do think Lucas nailed it from Anakin's immolation onwards. I just can't argue with the way that scene and Obi-wan's following regret was handled; I even choked up a bit.

[ETandElliott]

The scene where Palpatine kills the Jedi was poorly executed. Of all the fights to use jump cuts, that was the one time where they should have been used. It looks silly and clumsy. My edit of ROTS cuts this sequence down so that Palpatine's attack is faster and more intense. The only other things I'd change are "The Arena" during the Jedi Temple raid and the addition of the Jedi ghost storyline at the end of the movie. Of all the tracked music segments in the PT, the march was absolute worst offender, and the whole Jedi spirit thing feels completely tacked on, creating a continuity error with the ending of ROTJ. Otherwise, aside from a handful of scenes in the first hour of the film I thought sucked and some poor editing, I enjoyed Sith.

[thecolorsblend]

The only other things I'd change are "The Arena" during the Jedi Temple raid

I don't get that. The Arena music works great, esp as that section wasn't used in AOTC.

[MannyOrtez]

Great post CoGro. I agree with pretty much everything.

The only thing that disappoints me about ROTS is that even though it was well received amongst the general public, it failed to leave a mark at all. The first few weeks it was out, it was huge, and that to me is as much fun as the movie itself. It looked like ROTS would be as big as the originals were. But that died down fairly quickly. I suppose that might have more to do with the state of cinema these days than ROTS itself...

I do miss the hype and buildup a ton. There's nothing like it.

[Ternian]

I agree that RotS did not leave the mark it was suppose to. I think that mainly has to do with the fact that it didn't answer any of the questions the OT raised...

[thecolorsblend]

Manny, there is indeed nothing quite like it.

[CoGro]

I think that mainly has to do with the fact that it didn't answer any of the questions the OT raised...

You must have missed that scene where we find out how Anakin became Darth Vader.

[suthrnthug]

I love ROTS. I just wish it got the three hour treatment like one of the LOTR movies. I was hoping to watch Darth Vader ( in the suit) kill some jedi!

[thecolorsblend]

Oy, there's one in every crowd.

[Raveers]

I love ROTS. I just wish it got the three hour treatment like one of the LOTR movies. I was hoping to watch Darth Vader ( in the suit) kill some jedi!

Oy, there's one in every crowd.

Indeed.... I still don't understand why a lot of people wanted to see the suited Vader going about killing Jedi in the movie. That's not what the movie was about....

[ETandElliott]

The only other things I'd change are "The Arena" during the Jedi Temple raid

I don't get that. The Arena music works great, esp as that section wasn't used in AOTC.

I seem to recall it being used for the scene on the Wookiee homeworld, making it even less relevant musically to the scene where Darth Vader leads the Empire's legions to exterminate the Jedi Knights.

[Bertok The Bad]

I think that mainly has to do with the fact that it didn't answer any of the questions the OT raised...

You must have missed that scene where we find out how Anakin became Darth Vader.

[CoGro]

I seem to recall it being used for the scene on the Wookiee homeworld, making it even less relevant musically to the scene where Darth Vader leads the Empire's legions to exterminate the Jedi Knights.

Not to mention the continuation of the Clone War on Utapau.

As a Clone War motif, fine.

I get that maybe that part of the film was not cut in time for JW to compose the scene, but surely there was enough time or even additional music recorded that would suffice.

[Raveers]

They probably did that knowing the fact the average joe who doesn't buy the soundtracks really wouldn't know any better. Only us those who do buy the soundtracks really know that it's been tracked.

After all how many posts have you seen on various message boards asking where the music from the Jedi Temple march came from?

[DoubleSith]

My biggest wish for the Ultimate Super Special Limited Anniversary Edition Box Set is for JW to sit down, rescore AOTC and ROTS and eliminate all the stupid duplicate/reused tracks. Plus a new sound mix (by anyone not called Ben Burtt) for all six movies that actually balances score and sound effects. It will never happen, though.

[Raveers]

My biggest wish for the Ultimate Super Special Limited Anniversary Edition Box Set is for JW to sit down, rescore AOTC and ROTS and eliminate all the stupid duplicate/reused tracks. Plus a new sound mix (by anyone not called Ben Burtt) for all six movies that actually balances score and sound effects. It will never happen, though.

Don't count on it. As you said it'll never happen, Lucas aint Peter Jackson. Lucas isn't going to spend the money to have Williams come in and re-score those scenes.

Edit: As far as a new sound mix of the existing material it's possible it could happen with the big saga box set next year now that Burtt is no longer working for Lucasfilm.

[suthrnthug]

I love ROTS. I just wish it got the three hour treatment like one of the LOTR movies. I was hoping to watch Darth Vader ( in the suit) kill some jedi!

Oy, there's one in every crowd.

Indeed.... I still don't understand why a lot of people wanted to see the suited Vader going about killing Jedi in the movie. That's not what the movie was about....

Not what the movie was about!? That's what was suppose to be the best part of the movie! That's what I wanted to see! Not five minute segment that showed NOTHING! Sorry if you assholes don't agree, I was just giving my opinion. At least that what I thought this thread was for?

[CountBlah]

My biggest wish for the Ultimate Super Special Limited Anniversary Edition Box Set is for JW to sit down, rescore AOTC and ROTS and eliminate all the stupid duplicate/reused tracks. Plus a new sound mix (by anyone not called Ben Burtt) for all six movies that actually balances score and sound effects. It will never happen, though.

Don't count on it. As you said it'll never happen, Lucas aint Peter Jackson. Lucas isn't going to spend the money to have Williams come in and re-score those scenes.

As far as a new sound mix of the existing material it's possible it could happen with the big saga box set next year now that Burtt is no longer working for Lucasfilm.

Williams re-scored some scenes for the Special Edition.

[ETandElliott]

Just the Victory Celebration. All other new or changed scenes in the SE used tracked music.

And I think regardless of whether the arena march had been released and I'd known it was composed for AOTC beforehand (and this would require all the video games and AOTC DVD menu to not utilize the track anyway), I'd still find the use during the Temple scene to be, musically, irrelevant. There's nothing there thematically to really back up that scene. It's just a generic march. Plus, I think the fact that the music in the next scene was heard in the arena scene in AOTC would kinda tip me off to the fact that it wasn't composed for ROTS. Even if I didn't listen to the AOTC OST, I'd probably still figure it was tracked. After listening to the scores for all six films, I don't believe Williams would ever have scored that Temple raid scene as it was tracked.

[thecolorsblend]

Not what the movie was about!? That's what was suppose to be the best part of the movie! That's what I wanted to see! Not five minute segment that showed NOTHING! Sorry if you assholes don't agree, I was just giving my opinion. At least that what I thought this thread was for?[/quote]
It's nothing personal against you bud, it's just that whole "three hour ROTS, a la LOTR" thing is a pet peeve.

Just ignore me.

[CoGro]

Just the Victory Celebration. All other new or changed scenes in the SE used tracked music.

And I think regardless of whether the arena march had been released and I'd known it was composed for AOTC beforehand (and this would require all the video games and AOTC DVD menu to not utilize the track anyway), I'd still find the use during the Temple scene to be, musically, irrelevant. There's nothing there thematically to really back up that scene. It's just a generic march. Plus, I think the fact that the music in the next scene was heard in the arena scene in AOTC would kinda tip me off to the fact that it wasn't composed for ROTS. Even if I didn't listen to the AOTC OST, I'd probably still figure it was tracked. After listening to the scores for all six films, I don't believe Williams would ever have scored that Temple raid scene as it was tracked.

Which is why re-scoring the prequels is at the top of my super duper uber edition boxset wishlist.

[thecolorsblend]

I'm not ready to jump in to this as fully as you have but watching TPM again last night, it is apparent how much the film benefits from nothing but 100% original music.

[CoGro]

And even TPM suffers from re-tracking music...

It does nothing but cheapen the films. I'm an audiophile, it stands out everytime I watch the films...it's evident in the SE's as well, but it's somewhat more tolerable.

[suthrnthug]

No problem, sorry for the A-bomb. I loved the movie I just would have like to seen more of the planets, more wookies, more battles, and more Padme. IMO. Still a great movie though.

[ETandElliott]

And even TPM suffers from re-tracking music...

It does nothing but cheapen the films. I'm an audiophile, it stands out everytime I watch the films...it's evident in the SE's as well, but it's somewhat more tolerable.

Agreed. Here's an example of how the music ends up getting shafted during the editing process. In the original version of the Wampa scene in ESB, the score synched up with onscreen events brilliantly. As Luke is using the Force to retrieve his lightsaber, there's a musical "TA-DUMP" whenever it budges in the snow. In the SE version of this scene, there were numerous shots of the ice monster added. The score ended up getting screwed and it now just continues through the new shots of the Wampa. The music that previously underscored the movement of Luke's lightsaber now plays as the monster gets up and walks over to Luke. This (what some music enthusiasts would see as) half-assed approach was taken with the PT scores. Music which was intended for specific events in the films would be shifted to other scenes, chopped up or dropped entirely, and end up hurting the score. Many times, this is due to the fact that Lucas edits the films extensively until late in the filmmaking process.

[CoGro]

which is why I think it would benefit the series is Johnny did a walkthrough of the films and touched up the score where need be. The SE of ROTJ proved that JW can come back and write new stuff...he can do it again I'm sure.

[Ternian]

I agree with CoGro on this one.

[Ayatollah Krispies]

Every time I think about the way this episode unfolded, I think about the wasted opportunity to give Tarkin a larger role. I'd like to have seen something that explains how he went from a nobody in the PT to someone who not only knows who Vader's former master was, but can order him around in ANH.

[Dogg Thang]

I agree - there feels like a missing piece there. I don't mind in the sense that I don't need every little piece of history filled but, considering some of the absolutely needless things that were given time, I think there could have been room for Tarkin. He is such a strong character in ANH that I almost feel he could be prepping himself for position of Emperor. Like Dooku in the PT, I think the actor put much more into the character than was actually written.

[Emperor's Prize]

I would be the last to say that the PT has turned out the way I imagined it when I first heard it was being made but I guess now that it's all done, I would rather have the technical problems corrected to provide a standard of quality and authenticity I think the prequels lack. Sith has its sound/music issues that I think need correction, albeit not as bad as Clones. This would be my one, fairly reasonable, request - AND to add the qui-gon scene.

I have to agree with this. I'm not concerned about the story that GL created, but rather more with the craft used to create that story. Even though I thoroughly enjoyed the PT, the editing, sound mixing, the chopped & tracked scores all prevented the PT from living up to its potential. I think it's no coincidence that those three are all closely related aspects of the post-production process. Just as an interesting (though ultimately pointless) exercise, I would love to have someone go back through all of the original footage for the PT and remix, rescore and re-edit it. I'm sure the results would be very interesting indeed.

[ETandElliott]

There had to be some way to integrate Tarkin into the plot beyond a bizarre cameo here he aimlessly bumbles away pointing at nothing.

[CoGro]

I don't think Tarkin needs to be in the film at all....

to me it was just a nod to the hardcores: A nice little cameo but nothing else....

what I liked from the novel was the way some of the future imperial officers were integrated into the story ie) Needa talking to Grievous..cool stuff, but it's completely irrelevant to the story. Cool for us sheep yes, but I don't think very useful in the scheme of things.

I think that's what you have to wrestle with in the editing room and when writing the script....the story and focus of the overall narrative has to prevail.

[Ternian]

Tarkin's introduction was well served in the cut scenes where Bail announces that governors have been placed in control of the local systems etc. I think it would have been nice to see more of these governors in the Senate and interacting with the Emperor.

[thecolorsblend]

The Tarkin stuff is minor and incidental. Placing him in there as a background character that you either notice or don't was a cool idea. He had nothing to contribute to the story and the idea of introducing governors and such in this movie would've been not only out of place, but would've also required five extra minutes (at least) to explain who they are, what their job is and to give some indication of where all this is going. All for a rather pointless OT shoutout.

No thanks.

[Ayatollah Krispies]

He had nothing to contribute to the story

What's your point? He had nothing to contribute to the story because that's the way the story was structured. You may as well say that Ki-Adi-Mundi had nothing to contribute either.

I don't mean to turn this into another endless pissing contest, so I'll try to keep it simple: Tarkin's backstory was completely unimportant to the OT. But now that the first three episodes have been put in front of it, the relationships between practically every single character in the series have been fully explored and significantly developed -- with the exception of this guy who suddenly shows up in the fourth chapter, is the Death Star commander, knows that Vader used to be a Jedi and that Kenobi was his master, and even has authority over him. Yet we are never told or shown why that's the case. To me, that's a hole.

[CoGro]

It's not a hole by any narrative standard.

[Ayatollah Krispies]

Sorry, but I'll have to consider yours something far less than the last word.

[wookykill]

All Tarkin really does is walk offscreen with a nasty scowl on his face, it looks funny and it ruins the scene. At least they could of had hired a better lookalike.

[Ternian]

No one needs to know Tarkin's background - however, I would have liked to know who all those men in grey uniforms were. They kinda appeared out of nowhere...

[VT-16]

with the exception of this guy who suddenly shows up in the fourth chapter, is the Death Star commander, knows that Vader used to be a Jedi and that Kenobi was his master, and even has authority over him.

Um, I think it's not a stretch to believe most higher-ranking Imperials know of Vader's deeds and powers and can either guess where he comes from or have learned it from the Emperor. Tarkin is just another military man, nothing more. Since he's already shown talking to the Emperor in ROTS, you might as well ask for a further backstory on that as well.

Knowing who Kenobi was, is also not a big surprise, since he's always been portrayed as a big-shot, Jedi-wise. And he served in the military in the same time-frame as Tarkin, so it's not insurmountable to think Tarkin had at least heard about him during the Clone Wars.

And I don't give two shits about the backstory of a bridge crew.

[thecolorsblend]

Exactly. Moreover, Tarkin seemed to think that Vader was a Jedi in ANH ("you are all that's left of their religion"). I doubt he knew very much about everything that happened. It seems easy to guess that the Emperor put Tarkin in charge of the Death Star project and he, Tarkin, is the one calling the shots. There's not much more to say about the whole situation.

[BrotherTheFirst]

the whole tarkin calls the shots on the ds always rubbed my rhubarb the wrong way.

[ETandElliott]

All Tarkin really does is walk offscreen with a nasty scowl on his face, it looks funny and it ruins the scene. At least they could of had hired a better lookalike.

I wouldn't go as far as to say it ruined the scene, but it was definitely an idea that didn't really translate to the screen very well. It was just....silly, reallly. I expected Vader to join both Tarkin and the Emperor on the bridge. But then he suddenly bumbles away pointing at his crotch in a goofy cameo. I believe I was quoted as saying "Huh?" during that scene.

[CoGro]

Read the book "Dark Lord" if you care to know more of Tarkin's backstory.

It's completely irrelevant to the saga of Skywalker.

[BrotherTheFirst]

felt like vader was saying "piss off. he's with me."

[SI]

the mere thought of ROTS brings warm feelings to my heart...