Non Specific Episode III Rumblings

[Artmaul]

So I spoke to a so-called insider last week who is/was associated with Lucasfilm, and he did nothing but trash Episode 3 for a good solid 30 minutes.

I really got pissed off because all of his observational opinions were based on preproduction animatics, models, costumes, and sets. He said it all looks like shit and that Lucas, "Doesn't give a fuck anymore."

I found this all very hard to believe.

First of all, how the flying fuck can a person make a decision about what the finished product of a film is going to look like by seeing things in a rough preproduction state?

Also, why wouldn't Lucas be trying to make this the best Star Wars film ever, if not to satisfy fans, but to satisfy his own notorious ego?

Also this guy claimed that the budget for this film was lower than any other Star Wars because Lucas has gone greedy and pocketed alot of money, seeking only to get Episode 3 produced as shoddily and cheaply as possible.

WTF?

Does this make any sense to any of you? Do you honestly believe Lucas has given up on his most beloved franchise?

One last thing. My source is legitimate, but he could either be seriously fucking confused, or embittered. Do not turn this thread into a "verify your source," or "who is he" debate.

This thread is for thoughts based on either your own first or second hand knowledge, or to bash this dude

[Jason@Star-Wars.net]

Lucas trying to save money is nothing fucking new either. Doesn't mean it's bad. He's always been a thrifty feller. If money wasn't an issue, he may have started making these films earlier.

I doubt Lucas is trying to make the best Star Wars movie. I think he is more then likely trying to maket he best 3rd episode of the series he can.

The film could end up being a generic version of what we always though Episode III to be. It's possible. But someone who saw preproduction shit wouldn't know either way. Sounds like they are just "Star Warsed" out. Then again, it's not uncommon to hate your boss or the people you work with.

I have to admit, when I watch the Droid Control sequence on hyperspace, I think it looks like shit and is hard to follow. I bet it would have been fine in the film. Oh yeah, I feel the same way about the Pod Race animatic and its probably my favorite sequence in a Star Wars movie.

I hope that cats wrong. He probably just likes to rain on people's parade.

Did he say anything that contained any substance?

-Jason

[Zidious]

Your post only contained three comments from him. "He doesn't care anymore", "things look terrible" and the budget is low.

We can clearly see from the webdocs that he cares. Why would any artist endanger their future efforts by giving up? He's got all of those employees working for him. Why would he behave in a way that might encourage the good ones to leave? He wants to make more films.

The various pictures we've seen don't show any quality difference from previous films. Why would he do that? Why would he act in such a way to make the artists producing this stuff look bad? It doesn't make any sense.

Your source sounds pretty spot on.
No he doesn't. It doesn't pass the smell test. It's just some embittered jackass.

It's not that Lucas has given up
That's 1/3rd of what the source said! Yet you've managed to figure out the source is "spot on".

[JohnS]

Maybe the source does not agree with the direction Lucas is taking the movie thus, he feels Lucas has given up.

[pjvader]

if anything lucas cares more about the prequels than he did during the OT! ive seen/heard alot of people giving up on this before it is even half finished, i think that by this time next year they will have a plate of words in front of them and they will be eating it

[Lord Seafood]

I don't think Lucas knows WHAT he's doing... I seriously doubt whether he knows if he's making a good film or not, he's just doing what he thinks fans want to see - in his own way of course.
You only need see the AOTC DVD for evidence of that... he complains that fans have always written to him saying they want to see Yoda fight one day, so he put it in the film, it was as simple as that.
The prequels are aimless, as Lucas is heading up Star Wars films that he doesn't really care that much about, otherwise he would have watched the OT before making them and tried a little harder to be consistent with them. My 2c.

[Zidious]

It's always humorous to watch mindless bashers flail around, making no sense.

I don't think Lucas knows WHAT he's doing

Yes, he has no idea how to make a film. That is not what this "insider" said, by the way.

I seriously doubt whether he knows if he's making a good film or not

Just throwing everything out there to see if something sticks? Again, the "insider" doesn't say this.

he's just doing what he thinks fans want to see

This is clearly wrong. It's obvious to everyone and their grandmother what "fans" would have wanted to see (movies with the exact style of the OT, with as much Vader as possible).

he complains that fans have always written to him saying they want to see Yoda fight one day, so he put it in the film, it was as simple as that.

Did you just make that up? I reviewed the DVD commentary and the "Puppets to Pixels" documentary. Where does he say this?

The prequels are aimless

Like your post.

Lucas is heading up Star Wars films that he doesn't really care that much about

Then why is he wasting ten years of his life to make them?

tried a little harder to be consistent with them

They are consistent.

[Ziggy]

It's not a big shock that an employee could:

1) Not like their boss.

2) Not agree with his boss's decisions.

3) Like to complain about 1 & 2.


Hell, I've done it myself.


If you talk to this person again, try to get some details in between his complaints.

[Palpy]

Just because someone says their source is legit doesn't make it so...look at Dark Knight or whatever he was called...people fell over themselves believing every word until he was proven a fake !

[darthpsychotic]

MF supports Art Maul one hundred percent.
Thanks for the info AM!

:Spawnn:

[Zidious]

MF supports Art Maul one hundred percent.

A real insider is no good if he's an irrational idiot. This is no criticism of Art Maul, but this particular "source" is useless. Rational criticisms would be useful. Not this silliness.

[Benovite]

Besides the visual feast that Episode 3 will likely be, there's WAY too much drama and an actual story for Ep3 to suck. Almost every character has some involvement in the major events taking place throughout the movie. There are too many important scenes involving Mace, Palpatine, Bail, the Loyalists, Padme, Obi-Wan, Yoda, the Jedi, the droids, wookies, the Clone Wars, General Grievous, oh yeah and Anakin turning into Vader.

Lucas could scrap the movie altogether and turn it into a stage play at some small San Rafael theatre and it would likely still be awesome to watch.

I'm going with "There's simply too much happening in this movie to even come close to sucking", as naive as that opinion might be.

[Fields]

So I spoke to a so-called insider last week who is/was associated with Lucasfilm, and he did nothing but trash Episode 3 for a good solid 30 minutes.

I really got pissed off because all of his observational opinions were based on preproduction animatics, models, costumes, and sets. He said it all looks like shit and that Lucas, "Doesn't give a fuck anymore."

Any specifics on what parts of the film he had problems with? From what you wrote, it sounds like he dislikes the visual aspects. What's his opinion on the story and editing?

Thanks for the new information, even though it is pretty negative.

[Palpy]

MF supports Art Maul one hundred percent.

Oh, so THAT makes it legit then.

[Artmaul]

Still with the doubting Thomases. The funny thing is, that I never once made any kind of claim which is extraordinary or unreasonable, and even myself called bullshit on alot of what this guy was saying. That seems pretty self-defeating to me folks. I am simply reporting the facts (in this case an LFL's opinion). Just because it isn't a specific spoiler or picture doesn't mean there isn't truth. Some of you guys get duped so much, all you can do is get pissed off whenever it is something short of Jesus coming out of the wildnerness and curing your acne.

I try my best to find things out, whilest staying out of harm's way and sometimes those things may be negative or absurd, but nevertheless, they were learned from a legitimate source.

Remember folks, filmic art is a subjective medium, so if a disgruntled employee says it looks like shit, does that mean he is simply voicing his opinion, or he is a bald faced liar and doesn't work on that movie which most of us are hoping will rule.

I had an opporutnity to crew Epsiode 3, and thank God I didn't get picked up because once you lift the curtain, it destroys all the magic. Embittered or not, you opinion is forever changed, and the impact significantly dulled or sharpened, depending on your BTS experience. Titanic was very much this.

[Jason@Star-Wars.net]

Artmaul,

I thank you for sharring what you heard. I got that you weren't saying anything but what you heard.

Over and out. 10-4

-Jason

[darthpsychotic]

MF supports Art Maul one hundred percent.

Oh, so THAT makes it legit then.

[Artmaul]

Thanks DP.

[Zidious]

The problem is not the legitimacy of the source. It's the irrationality of the arguments themselves. They are nonsensical.

[Artmaul]

I think if I could get into more detail, you may see some of the rationality of the arguments. The point however is to drudge up some arguments against this type of irrationality as was posted.

[Thundercracker]

I don't doubt ArtMaul and this not directed at him but these "digruntled" LFL employee reports are funny. We heard the same stuff about Ep 1 & 2. After AOTC, I'm surprised ILM even has any more employees since they all jumped ship and went to work for Weta, right? It seems like these guys just like to stir the pot.

Even if the guy is dissapointed with Ep3, it would be nice if he could give some constructive criticism to give us an idea about what's right and what's wrong with Ep3. Instead of the tired old "Ep3 will suck, George has no idea what he's doing" rants.

[Zidious]

The arguments are irrational.

1) He doesn't care anymore
Then why did he bother to direct the movie himself?

2) things look terrible
We've seen things. They don't look any different than previous movies or any other decent movie for that matter.

3) the budget is low
I'll guess we'll have to wait and see. Lucas pushes hard for efficiencies. Total dollars spent is not necessarily indicative of effort.

You presented no other arguments from this source.

[vanillazinger]

Personally, I've never seen Star Wars fans as quietly bitter as those working for official projects. It's one thing to disapprove of what the VIPs decide. It's another thing to present your own input and have it be rejected in favor of something of which you disapprove. I can only imagine how much worse it must be if the project is an actual movie, and the final one at that.

Edit: Oops, I see that I've missed the stated purpose of the thread. Umm, let's see. That guy is some kind of fucking ass-basket if he hates Episode 3 based on nothing but preproduction bullshit!!

*sigh* Sorry, I can't get into the spirit. I turned off animations on my browser, so I can't even post a little vomiting emoticon or anything.

[Biggs]

Thanks for the info.

Either way, y'all bitching about whether it's any good or not before anything of actual substance has come out (Trailers, finished production images etc) need to wait for the chicken to hatch, otherwise you run the risk of looking silly.

......and at the end of the day, it's a Star Wars movie, and you will all be there lining up to get a ticket same as everyone else.

That being said, I personally have reserved hopes for this film...and am looking foward to the OT Films out on DVD - Special Editions or not...

[vanillazinger]

In my experience it's a mixed blessing to see the very beginning of a project. You always propose more than you can afford and then pare down to fit the budget. I bet this chap saw one or two of his favorite bits get the axe, and now grumbles about how cheap Lucas is, even though said bits were never really a priority consideration. Just a guess.

For my part, the movie sounds even bigger and more ambitious than I had originally thought. No complaints here.

[Benovite]

The matter of Episode 3's budget and how that pertains to its quality is nonsensical. Does it even matter how much the movie will cost? The first Star Wars flick was made with what, something lik $10 million? Which was a miniscule budget compared to the likes of today. Ten mill barely pays for marketing in today's movie industry, especially for a Fox movie.

Using a movie's budget against a movie's quality is foolish. It's putting the horse before the cart. Also a bit like saying Empire sucked because it made less at the box office than ANH. Ok different end of the money issue but same shit really.

[Joe1138]

I don't know, I mean this guy (the LFL emplyee) just sounds like every other prequel basher out there who isn't privy to all the good stuff over at the Ranch. At this point, everyone can call it what they want, whether it be pontential genius or doomed disaster, but when all is said and done, on May 19th, 2005, everyone's current opinion of the film will mean zilch (with the exception of the stubborn bastards who refuse to watch and enjoy or hate a film based on its own merits and not some preconcieved notion of what the film should have been in their opinion... which would be about 80% of the Star Wars fan community nowadays, it seems).

[Lord Seafood]

It's always humorous to watch mindless bashers flail around, making no sense.

I don't think Lucas knows WHAT he's doing

Yes, he has no idea how to make a film. That is not what this "insider" said, by the way.

I seriously doubt whether he knows if he's making a good film or not

Just throwing everything out there to see if something sticks? Again, the "insider" doesn't say this.

he's just doing what he thinks fans want to see

This is clearly wrong. It's obvious to everyone and their grandmother what "fans" would have wanted to see (movies with the exact style of the OT, with as much Vader as possible).

he complains that fans have always written to him saying they want to see Yoda fight one day, so he put it in the film, it was as simple as that.

Did you just make that up? I reviewed the DVD commentary and the "Puppets to Pixels" documentary. Where does he say this?

The prequels are aimless

Like your post.

Lucas is heading up Star Wars films that he doesn't really care that much about

Then why is he wasting ten years of his life to make them?

tried a little harder to be consistent with them

They are consistent.

Man... get a life. It's my opinion, which I am entitled to.

[PTGrievous]

From what I've seen and know, I'm going to love Episode III.

Your friend's subjective opinion will not sway mine at all.

[Zidious]

It's my opinion

This isn't opinion: "You only need see the AOTC DVD for evidence of that... "

What's the timestamp?

[Ewok_Pudu]

Its real simple actually.

We fans are fans. We want to love this stuff, we'll find the cool stuff and love it to death.

The bitter are the bitter. They want to hate this stuff and will find the stuff to hate about the movie no matter what.

People going into Episode 3 with a predetermined idea of what the movie will be, will stay set with that opinion after they leave the theater.

I know of enough people that work in entertainment industries that hate the process and hate the product at the end of the process, but millions of people buy and enjoy the product.

Anybody working for LFL is gonna be bitter that they are underpaid, have to work too hard, aren't appreciated, etc. etc. but they should be more upset with themselves for taking the low paying job to begin with, and for staying there and putting up with it.

People within the system see "what could have been" and the "squandered ideas." and are sad with the final results. Its the same people that were upset with Episode I for it not being exactly the movie they had in their head for 15 years while they dreamed up ideas for what would have to be in the movie.

Its like the people that are upset that episodes 7-9 won't be made. They are only upset because they heard at one point there WAS going to be a 7-9. Now they feel like they are missing something.

As for ArtMaul. Homeslice has been nothing but forthcoming at his own personal risk. If you can't appreciate, at least respect him. Don't hate.

edit:
Let me make one other thing clear. The main core group of artists (for example), working on this film would lament certain things not being what they expected, or other movies having more of a "cool" factor to them, but.... BUT it didn't mean they didn't give their 100% all to still try and push the envelope as much as possible and really give George some amazing stuff to pull from. 90% of their stuff will never even see the light of day, but it would put the creativity of the preproduction art done on most other films these days to absolute shame.

You can hate the company you work for and still take a huge amount of pride in the work you are doing personally on it. You want to be able to say "thats my shot and it looks fuckin stellar" when your buds see it in the theater.

[vanillazinger]

Its real simple actually.

We fans are fans. We want to love this stuff, we'll find the cool stuff and love it to death.

The bitter are the bitter. They want to hate this stuff and will find the stuff to hate about the movie no matter what.

People going into Episode 3 with a predetermined idea of what the movie will be, will stay set with that opinion after they leave the theater.

I know of enough people that work in entertainment industries that hate the process and hate the product at the end of the process, but millions of people buy and enjoy the product.

Anybody working for LFL is gonna be bitter that they are underpaid, have to work too hard, aren't appreciated, etc. etc. but they should be more upset with themselves for taking the low paying job to begin with, and for staying there and putting up with it.

I dunno, I've seen people enter a Star Wars project with knife-sharp enthusiasm for the franchise, and come out feeling like their edge was methodically ground away. It had nothing to do with low pay or excessive work, but with the restraints on creativity. Admittedly that disappointment is due as much to their own naivete as anything. However, the Ranch does come up with some very...odd restrictions.

People within the system see "what could have been" and the "squandered ideas." and are sad with the final results. Its the same people that were upset with Episode I for it not being exactly the movie they had in their head for 15 years while they dreamed up ideas for what would have to be in the movie.

I was going to cast doubt on that observation, but as I thought about it, you're pretty much spot on.

As for ArtMaul. Homeslice has been nothing but forthcoming at his own personal risk. If you can't appreciate, at least respect him. Don't hate.

Agreed.

edit:
Let me make one other thing clear. The main core group of artists (for example), working on this film would lament certain things not being what they expected, or other movies having more of a "cool" factor to them, but.... BUT it didn't mean they didn't give their 100% all to still try and push the envelope as much as possible and really give George some amazing stuff to pull from. 90% of their stuff will never even see the light of day, but it would put the creativity of the preproduction art done on most other films these days to absolute shame.

You can hate the company you work for and still take a huge amount of pride in the work you are doing personally on it. You want to be able to say "thats my shot and it looks fuckin stellar" when your buds see it in the theater.

Also agreed, 100%.

[Artmaul]

Thanks Pudu.

Your analysis is spot on, and spoken from someone who is savvy with the inner machinations of the industry.

I will contact this guy again and try to get a little more specific, but at the end of the day, it seems as though he will elicit nothing more than Episode 3 bashing.

[Ziggy]

Can't you just feel the love in this thread?




Seriously, thanks for sharing what you got. If this guy wants to spill some details, that'd be nice too.

[Zidious]

Start by asking him why someone would decide to direct a movie they don't care about.

[Lord Seafood]

It's my opinion

This isn't opinion: "You only need see the AOTC DVD for evidence of that... "

What's the timestamp?

It's on there, I can't be arsed looking for a timestamp to prove it because you're so goddamn friendly.

[Zidious]

It's on there, I can't be arsed looking for a timestamp to prove it because you're so goddamn friendly.

Whether you're right or wrong is independent of my personality. I scanned the disk. I think you made it up.

If you want friendly, try TF.N.

[Lord Seafood]

It's on there, I can't be arsed looking for a timestamp to prove it because you're so goddamn friendly.

Whether you're right or wrong is independent of my personality. I scanned the disk. I think you made it up.

If you want friendly, try TF.N.

Er no. Stop being a dick.

Lucas has a conversation with Coleman or Knoll about Yoda fighting (because they are worried about animating it) and Lucas says something to the effect of "The fans want to see it, I know because I get letters about it all the time."
If Lucas cared about the character, he would never have had Yoda fight. He did it because he thought that's what would make people go pay their money at the box office.
That is my analysis... you don't have to agree, and you certainly don't have to tell me to "try TF.N" like an asshole.

[Zidious]

I scanned the Puppets to Pixels documentary for anytime Lucas was on screen. He doesn't mention anything about writing or letters. If it's somewhere else, I'd like to know.

Besides, the overwhelming evidence is that Lucas does what he wants, not what fans want. As I mentioned before, if he was following the fans, the PT would be in the style of the OT with lots of Vader. The criticism is irrational.

[Ewok_Pudu]

I indirectly know two people that does/had worked for lucasfilm.
Both say/said it sucked. Both complained that George caters to actors’ egos and that he is very unappreciative of pretty much everyone else.

Grass is always greener.

Actors on the film bitch that George cares more about the boys at ILM making his visual effects.

Bottomline: everybody wants a Star Wars credit on the old resume. Big door opener and they will take whatever paycut is necessary to get it. Problem is, LFL knows this and thus rarely goes after the top tier talent across the board. (there are exceptions of course at key positions). Everybody is a seat-filler with enthusiasm towards the project (at least initially).

Its like this on every major name studio director's projects. Watch the Jurassic Park DVD and witness the insane amount of ridiculous ass-kissing done to Spielberg while they have a meeting about dinosaur movement.

Same goes for the people working on Lord of the Rings. Sure there was a lot of personal pride due to the love of the books, and Peter Jackson's "enthusiasm" is much talked about. But most of them lavishing that praise are doing so well after their long hours are over and done with and they are doing so because the project turned out well and they want to make sure they have the chance to tap into a success (i.e. anything else Peter Jackson ever works on ) again.

When Episode I's f/x were being completed, you had a whole studio bitching about how crappy Episode I was and how "cool" it would have been to have been able to work on The Matrix instead.

Grass is always greener.

Impossible to please all the egos.

[FittenTrim: The Movie]

Had to jump back on the board for this thread.


I don't know why people get so upset and can't accept this person's opinion.

As Fatboy pointed out, there were all sorts of rumors about Mannequin Skywalker performance from Jake Lloyd. It was a wise warning for those of us who couldn't take lil Lloyd's work and the ILM digital work that went into changing the kid's face in TPM.

Also, I remember an insider report on TF.n (sorry) six months before AotC came out. The insider claimed that the love story was terrible, the action was awesome, and the film was "the most uneven of the whole series."

Well, guess what, it sured seemed like that insider report was a wise "heads up" warning.



As for EpIII, I agree with the person who wrote that Lucas wasn't willing to film any on location. There appears to be more bluescreen on this than on the other PT films... and that's scary.


Artmaul, please give us more specific feedback.

[Ternian]

Of course GL would be making things cheaper - isn't that half the point of CGI? Cut down on human labour and increase computer work to the level where programs create things inexpensively??

Yes, I can GL sacraficing many things for this goal - he doesn't care about SW, he is more interested in creating technological break throughs behind scenes - and the audience is seeing that. Personally, I don't think GL is that great of a director...

[Ternian]

I don't think GL has given up on the Saga, but rather turned it into a tool for technology.

However, it's more likely that things cost less because the various processes have become more refined and are moving along smoother.

Yeah, but at what expense? Budget cut downs means moving to China, paying less, and making more in the pocket. The expense is the story because now GL has invested in CGI wonders, he HAS to show this to the world and he would rather show than tell - which sacrafices quality, IMO.

[Zidious]

EP3's animatics were already better than last year's Oscar winner.

Ha ha! I love that.

I don't know why people get so upset and can't accept this person's opinion.

Because the arguments are irrational, just like you. I'm still waiting for someone to answer why a person would decide to direct a movie they don't care about.

[Zidious]

More and more decissions are being taken on what 'tests' well with sample audiences

Where is the evidence for this? Lucas has spoken out many times against this very thing. One of the reasons he founded his own company was so he could escape this type of Hollywood nonsense. It's a little hard to believe.

Additionally people who I have spoken to about the film with connections do not seem too excited by the film or the way it is being made.

And what are the objective reasons for these 'feelings'?

[Zidious]

...when it comes to questioning the objectivity of Artmauls insider...

I'm not really complaining about that. It is the irrationality of the arguments themselves. Why bother spending days and days directing a movie he didn't care about when he could get someone else to do it? It fails a simple logic test.

But Lucas does state in one of the AOTC DVD docs that the fans want to see Yoda fight...

The only comment I could find was Lucas commenting on how "everyone wants to see it". That's quite different from the original claim, which was that fans wrote in wanting to see Yoda fight and this is why it was put in the film.

The FX guys and pre-production team seem to be making and shaping the film, much more so then responding to Lucas' orders.

I think Lucas has always done that.

[vanillazinger]

Peoples hope that Lucas will pull out a blinding film has been dashed.

That's fair enough. Though I thought that was clear after TPM.

The FX guys and pre-production team seem to be making and shaping the film, much more so then responding to Lucas' orders.

That doesn't surprise me in the least. I suspected that was the case after watching the AOTC docs, and the Grievous web doc confirmed it. Lucas is a story man and a photographer, not a visual creator. Which is fine, I would guess most directors are that way. But guys like Spielberg and Jackson are apparently much better at fostering a team creative spirit, as opposed to that atmosphere we see in the SW docs of "work hard for a month and hope that the billionaire CEO stamps one of your pieces on his two-hour visit." That may be overharsh on Lucas, but it's obvious how nervous everyone is when he shows up. I can only imagine the bad feelings that must leave (especially in artists ).

Still, Lucas does get some wonderful eye candy out of his process, so I'm not complaining as such.

[Zidious]

That may be overharsh on Lucas

It might be completely accurate. The relevant question is whether the behavior is new. I think he has always behaved this way (not counting his very earliest films). If the behavior is not new, then this doesn't tell us anything, good or bad, about EP III.

[JohnS]

Very simple.... NOT everyone likes Starwars, NOT everyone likes their job. People have different views. There are hundreds more out there who have the same view as this insider, and i'm sure there are 100 more that disagree and will love it. Not everyone will like EP3. Not all news is going to be good and giddy. Thats just the way it is.

[Renderking Fisk]

Just because someone says their source is legit doesn't make it so...look at Dark Knight or whatever he was called...people fell over themselves believing every word until he was proven a fake !

Do you mean Super-Wanker-Shaddow?

I said this somewhere else in this forum... just wait for the movie to come out and make your own judgements. So many times I read crap that's obviously made up to fill the gaps from a rumor they half understood. That doens't happen here too much cause MF'ers know what they're talking about and qualify thier shit with "This is just a rumor" or "I heard this from...".

Knock Art Maul all you want, but he did the right thing by how he qualified his remarks.