[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 555: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 555: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 555: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 555: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 555: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 555: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 555: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 555: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 555: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 555: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 555: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 555: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 555: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 555: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 555: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 555: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 555: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 555: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 555: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 555: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 555: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 555: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 555: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 555: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 555: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 555: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 555: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 555: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 555: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 555: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 555: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 555: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 555: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 555: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 555: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 555: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 555: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 555: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 555: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 555: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 555: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 555: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 555: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 555: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 555: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 132: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 132: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 132: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 132: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4764: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3887)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4766: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3887)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4767: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3887)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4768: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3887)
millenniumfalcon.com • View topic - The (enormous) Problem With Force Ghosts...
It is currently October 26th 2020 12:57 pm




 
Post Posted: August 6th 2017 12:39 am
 
User avatar

Join: December 24th 2004 6:14 pm
Posts: 152
One thing that I dearly hope is addressed and resolved by the end of this new trilogy is the relationship between Luke and the Force ghosts of Obi-Wan and Yoda. They HAVE TO address it in a very robust manner. If they don't, it'll be an enormously cowardly move on their part. Having two of the most powerful Force masters ever, being able to mentor Luke and freely converse with him (Obi-Wan's spirit was just casually walking the swamps of Dagobah!) - man, that's a huge problem for writers. It also begs the question, "Well, shouldn't Anakin's Force ghost be there mentoring Luke as well?" Yes. Yes it does.

They MUST eradicate these ghost-Force-Masters as they provide for far too many opportunities to generate huge plot holes. Luke is at a tremendous advantage with these Force ghosts milling about...

"Dodge to your left Luke!"

"Forward roll you must!"

"Son, there's a bounty hunter posing as a barman in that cantina, and he's poisoned an umbrella garnish for your iced Tantooine Tea. By the way, stop drinking that swill Luke. The artificial sweeteners will eat holes in your brain..."

We know from the end of Ep. III that Qui-Gon Gin's spirit TAUGHT Yoda about these Force ghost intricacies! That Force Ghost Trio would give Luke an enormous advantage in everything that he'd ever encounter.

And if Leia does die in some way, and regardless of the circumstances and distance, Luke would HAVE TO KNOW about it because of his connection to her. For them to write anything otherwise wouldn't align with what was established in the prior movies.

Maybe we'll see the command bridge of Snoke's gigantic star destroyer, and he's pacing back and forth in his golden robes in front of several figures wearing gear that looks technologically advanced, and quite intimidating. As the camera pans up the legs of Snoke's dreadful bounty hunters, we'd see the faces of Dan Aykroyd, Bill Murray and Ernie Hudson!

*cue Ray Parker Jr.'s hit theme song* :chewbacca:

I don't care how they do it, those Force ghosts have to get busted...!

:funkyvflamethrower:


Post Posted: August 6th 2017 9:25 am
 
OBGYN
User avatar

Join: August 25th 2004 12:31 pm
Posts: 3644
I don't think it has to be "robust," but yeah Force ghosts do need to be addressed somehow in the future.


Post Posted: August 6th 2017 3:39 pm
 

Join: November 16th 2008 3:10 pm
Posts: 317
Isnt the whole idea of becoming more powerful than you can imagine due to my discipline in taking the long way to power instead of the easy path? If they make force ghosts disposable... then this whole notion is moot... whats the point. short life... rule with an iron fist darkside supreme!


Post Posted: August 7th 2017 12:34 am
 
User avatar

Join: December 24th 2004 6:14 pm
Posts: 152
From Hokusai:
If they make force ghosts disposable... then this whole notion is moot... whats the point. short life...

I don't think that it *has to* make the whole notion moot.

Think of the hundreds (if not thousands) of generations of Jedi who died prior to Qui Gon Gin's "consciousness retention" discovery - was their service to the Light Side of the Force wasted because their consciousness were completely reabsorbed by the Force? This leads to me wonder if their consciousness are completely reabsorbed, then is that to a Perfectly Neutral Gray Balance of the Force, or to a "heavenly/paradise" like Light Side of the Force? Makes my head hurt just to ponder that, but it's an important question. If the Light Side Force adepts are completely reabsorbed to a Perfectly Balanced state of the Force, then that does beg the question (for me anyway), what IS the point, after all, the Dark Side Force adepts are completely reabsorbed as well due to their greedy pursuit of material pursuits during their material existence. Right? Dark Siders are "punished" by being DENIED any sort of consciousness retention, yet till Qui Gon Gin came along, the same was true for the Light Siders.

It seems to me that The Clone Wars and Rebels TV series have canonically established that the conscious spirit of Force adepts CAN continue on and have influence on the material plane LONG after their deaths. In fact, when looking at it from this perspective, the Dark Siders have far more manifestations of their malicious spirits than we witnessed from anyone aligned with the Light Side (this is even in spite of Yoda calling his vision of Darth Bane "...an illusion..." and "...not real..." because of how frequently we hear whispers of evil spirits around Darth Sidious, Darth Tyranus and the Night Sisters; these voices were "recognized" as EXISTING to these Dark Side adepts).

For myself, the spiritual side of Star Wars needs some significant elaboration and truncation. As it stands right now, it creates a whole host of mammoth traps for generating unavoidable plot holes. Having consciousness retaining Light Side ghosts operating in the material plane makes them tremendously overpowered. They are The Ultimate intelligence agency, and, honestly, how can they be circumvented from going anywhere and observing anyone? Does the Dark Side limit their powers and "repel" them? This makes sense for when they were still trapped in a physical body, but they're now as Free as free can possibly be. What barrier could stop them, they are, after all, already "One with the Force..." which is everywhere and binds everything...?

I can only hope that if the intentions of this trilogy are to bring the Skywalker saga to an end, and that's due to finally being able to achieve True Balance with the Force (wait, didn't Darth Vader/Anakin already do that?), that it then means that overpowered Force ghosts become a thing of the past while simultaneously reducing the insatiable impact of the Dark Side on the material plane.

I don't know - this is quite a mess to iron out.


Post Posted: August 7th 2017 10:25 pm
 
User avatar

Join: October 12th 2004 9:34 pm
Posts: 2577
Location: Toronto, Canada
I think you're being a bit hyperbolic about this whole thing. It isn't a mess and it wouldn't be "cowardly" if they didn't address it in a "very robust way." Shit like this exists in all fantasy and I think viewers are generally smart enough to take certain narrative leaps to make things like Force Ghosts make sense.

Where I do sort of align is that Lucas unnecessarily created a needless storyline about the origin of Force Ghosts, how one becomes a Force Ghost, and what this means for the Light Side as far as the balance of the Force is concerned. It would have been simpler if any Jedi disappeared and became a Force Ghost when they perished. That was my impression of how this worked when I watched the OT and it didn't need further explanation. If you wanted it though, I think the rules are fairly well-established:

- Force Ghosts only manifest themselves to Force users they have formed a connection with through the Force
- Force Ghosts cannot and do not provide information about the earthly plane to the living

So no, I do not think there is any narrative cheat that can happen with the existence of Force Ghosts. The movies have made it clear that they cannot just appear anywhere, find out some shit, and then report back to the living about what's going on like some Game Genie cheat code or as a "Chloe" to the hero's Jack Bauer. Remember: Obi-wan "cannot interfere" with Luke's confrontation with Vader, nor did he step in to save him when Luke was inches from death even though he was "the last hope."

In other words, the Force Ghosts are there for wisdom and guidance, and their knowledge is limited to what they acquired prior to perishing. They are Jor-El to Kal-El.

It would be an amazingly challenging feat for the sequel trilogy to fix all the confusing rules that Lucas created, and progress the narrative in new and interesting ways. In my opinion, the ST should address the larger narrative issues it has created for itself - i.e. who is Snoke and why is he suddenly this big bad when Palpatine was the main threat for 6 movies - and not bog itself down in shit that is completely unimportant to 90% of the audience.


Post Posted: August 9th 2017 12:47 pm
 
User avatar

Join: December 24th 2015 5:26 am
Posts: 239
There's nowt wrong with the concept and depiction of Force ghosts in Star Wars, to date (IMO). The only caveat is that I think they'd need some modicum of sensible exposition to explain if Yoda, Obi-Wan and Anakin are no longer around to guide Luke.


Post Posted: August 9th 2017 4:43 pm
 
User avatar

Join: December 24th 2004 6:14 pm
Posts: 152


Post Posted: August 14th 2017 9:07 am
 

Join: October 22nd 2014 4:21 am
Posts: 11
Hang on a second though - the Force Ghosts never displayed knowledge of things they didn't know when alive.

They're not omnipotent gods, they're ghosts.


Post Posted: August 14th 2017 1:56 pm
 

Join: November 16th 2008 3:10 pm
Posts: 317
and if they can only communicate with the individual... then they only know what is happening around the individual, or what they are told.


Post Posted: August 15th 2017 1:31 pm
 
User avatar

Join: October 12th 2004 9:34 pm
Posts: 2577
Location: Toronto, Canada


Post Posted: August 16th 2017 6:22 am
 
OBGYN
User avatar

Join: August 25th 2004 12:31 pm
Posts: 3644


Post Posted: August 16th 2017 7:41 am
 
User avatar

Join: May 2nd 2005 7:26 am
Posts: 1998
Location: Down the rabbit hole


Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
 



Jump to:  
cron




millenniumfalcon.com©
phpBB©