MF Reviews VIII

[red5standingby]

NO SPOILERS I PROMISE


Full disclosure - I am a lifelong Star Wars fan. It came out when I was four and it was the first film I ever saw in the cinema. I adore the original trilogy and tolerate the prequels, despite their numerous (many) flaws. And I really like The Force Awakens with some minor quibbles. Rogue One left me cold.



I made a conscious decision to avoid all trailers, tv spots, articles, featurettes - everything for The Last Jedi so I could go in totally spoiler-free.



And, I enjoyed (almost) every second of it.



First off this is a hell of a ride. A non-stop rollercoaster of action and emotion. And it's damn funny in places, a hell of a lot more than I expected. And it does not go the way you think it will. At all. And that may be a problem for some.



It's a hard balance to strike. Go the tried and trusted route or try something audacious and new? And you'll never win no matter which way you go.



Is it a great film? Yes.



Is it a great Star Wars film? Yes.



But...be wary of all-out raves. No film is perfect and this is no exception. There were a couple of clunky moments and one subplot in particular that did nothing for me.



I think it's going to be a divisive film, possibly more so than its predecessor. Will your enjoyment depend on how spoiled you are? Possibly. But having looked at the trailer now I'm glad I did what I did. And I will be doing the same for Episode 9.



I'm being incredibly wary of spoilers hence the vagueness. But if you have questions - shoot.



It's always a very overwhelming experience seeing a Star Wars film for the first time and I'm still processing it. I am really looking forward to seeing it with a paying audience at the midnight screening on Wednesday night as there are a great many crowd-pleasing moments.



And I totally see why Lucasfilm / Disney / Kathleen Kennedy have given Rian Johnson the keys to the kingdom. He GETS it. And I can't wait to see what he comes up with without being bound by the characters and elements he has to work with here.



So, go and see it on the biggest, loudest screen you can, enjoy it and make up your own mind

[red5standingby]

You know what I mean. It's very poorly written, yes, but all the details are correct.

[Doctor When]

C’mon guys... it can’t be as poor as TFA. I have hope in Rian. Sure, he has to work with the characters of the previous film, but surely it has to be better...

[red5standingby]

C’mon guys... it can’t be as poor as TFA. I have hope in Rian. Sure, he has to work with the characters of the previous film, but surely it has to be better...

I preferred it to TFA myself. But it feels like a very different film.

[KyleKartanMG]

94% on Rotten Tomatoes out of 126 critics.

Average Score: 8.4

[Bandersnatch]

94 % on Rotten Tomatos out of 126 critics.

Can't have that now, can we.
And of course, the New Yorker hates it.

Looking forward even more to seeing this on Thursday night, and forming my own point of view.

[Doctor When]

C’mon guys... it can’t be as poor as TFA. I have hope in Rian. Sure, he has to work with the characters of the previous film, but surely it has to be better...

I preferred it to TFA myself. But it feels like a very different film.

If it feels like a different film to TFA then i’m totally on board, as I really disliked TFA...

[Inc]

Always kind of hard to tell on this forum, but having just left the cinema, I think most people are going to enjoy this movie. There's a lot to like. The screening I went to had a good vibe, people laughed out loud at the jokes, and the plot wasn't riddled with holes. There's new developments, and a few really unexpected moments. Luke is handled respectfully.

For a movie playing in very sacred territory, I'm not sure you could ask for a lot more. That's my 10 cents anyway.

Hope everyone enjoys their own experience.

[Hokusai]

What I read... I hated... The clips ive seen are great... some magical.

[Duke]

Just came from the theater.

What the fuck was that? A comedy? A parody?

[Kyle]

Last night, I went to read Spoilers Free reviews of the film.

The fourth one I read (keep in mind, this is LATE at night, and I'm exhausted and the ability to comprehend what one's reading is slowed) was FULL of spoilers IN SPITE OF what it claimed in its title. I got three sentences into it before my tired brain registered the contents of the first sentence: deaths.

And more...

I'm actively trying to PURGE everything that I read in my too-tired-state. I've got all but one name removed from the Death List, and I'm absolutely DEVOTED to getting rid of it as well.

That said, I'm quite worried about the film from the REACTIONS that I'm reading here (I'm not reading any Spoiler-Text). It seems split 50/50 between those in favor of Johnson's efforts to those who strongly detest it. That is not a good batting average.

As an educator, I somehow have to hope that I can make it through all of next week without having the film spoiled for me by my students. Winter Break doesn't begin till next Saturday, and the local theatre's seats are one step away from being full out torture devices. Its screens are only 5 times larger than an upper end TV. I'm hoping to wait to drive an hour and a half away to get to a somewhat decent theatre to watch it there, but I have to admit that with all of the shocked negative reactions that I'm wondering if my time and money is better spent sitting in the local torture seat.

What's worrying me so much is not that there are negative reviews, but that those negative reviews are filled with so many statements of outright SHOCK. Has there been another Star Wars film to garner such a reaction? I can't think of one.

If any of you have seen the film are so inclined, would you mind simply telling me "It's worth the long drive on wintry roads with your kids" or tell me "Sorry, it sucks, so watch it in your torture mini-theatre."

Whatever gets the most votes is what I'll be doing.

[royalguard96]

I'm going into this film less spoiled for any Star Wars film since Empire Strikes Back. Of course I was 7 years old back in 1980, and probably didn't have handy access to spoilery info.

I'll be seeing the film at 7:45 tomorrow night, around 20 hours from now. Will come straight here after I get home to post initial thoughts.

I do feel this film has more "pressure" to deliver than Rogue One did. Rogue One didn't have the same responsibility The Last Jedi has a higher bar to clear for me than Rogue One did. And I'm someone who ranked The Force Awakens in the lower half of the films released so far.

But no matter what, I feel so fortunate to have a story that moved me so much as a child still alive and evolving today in my 40s. That's probably why I hold the prequel trilogy in such affection. This is a living link to the most precious part of my childhood, and I am deeply grateful I still get to experience this.

[SI]

Spoiler

Those list of spoilers are true. I just got back from my 2nd viewing. As usual the vocal minority of fucktards are out in force having a sook. Just go and see it for yourself before casting judgement. The ending, for me anyway, heavily implies Luke will return in EP9 to help Rey with her training. Anyone looking for TFA v2.0 or ESB-lite are in for a massive shock.

This will not go the way you think

[Zaius]

I had the pleasure of watching a double bill of The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi last night.


I personally, think The Last Jedi to be one of the best Saga films.

The depth and the verve and the detail are astonishing. This film is exceptional particularly for
attention to character motivation.

There's a dexterity to this film that works in tandem with the storytelling to produce a
new energy for this serial.

[Evil_Elvis]

"We are what they grow beyond."

This film is ALL about passing the torch and I loved it for that.

[prox]

So, I have a lot of issues now and a lot of TFA's problems are way more legitimate now too.

For example, Rey being a Mary Sue. No training, no experience, no history. Yet could probably lift the weight of an X-wing in rocks with ease. She's miles ahead of Luke with even less training.

Snoke NEEDED a backstory. But nope. Completely tossed that aside. WHAT WERE YOU THINKING?! What even were his goals? I understand not wanting to hand-hold viewers, but this is ridiculous. This is the kinda thing that needs info in the film, not in some comic book. A LOT of casual fans will not get it.

Casino scene is wayyyyyyy too Earth-like. The whole Finn side-mission amounts to filler. And lol Phasma. Why. Just why.

For the most part I liked the rest of the film, but I don't buy Kylo Ren as the main antagonist going forward. Carrie Fisher's death just further complicates things.

[E_CHU_TA!]

My initial impression is that this was another good Star Wars-lite film. There is more thought and weight to this-one than the TFA. But - like the TFA, it's flaws make me long for the layer-cake approach of the PT / OT and Clone Wars show. (I'm just living in the past I suppose.)

Too bad, that Leia and Luke have to be involved in this story. It's not that these characters are handled horribly. It's just seems like their arc trajectories took an odd bounce and ended-up in the wrong place. There is equal measure bravery and naivety in Johnson's choices for the twins.

I'm glad that Yoda showed-up to perform the old master-apprentice Dagobah-shtick with Luke. Luke has always had a lot of self-doubt. So, his hermiting holds water. However, Hamill's reaction is my reaction: "This is what happens to Luke?" There are some intelligent, fun, and poignant moments for Mr. Skywalker. So, I'll buy-it if I have to. But, seriously: "This is what happens to Luke?"

Leia's outcome seems closer to the mark than her brother. Though, it felt heavy-handed watching her character flux equally between mentor-speak and punchlines. Given real world circumstances, I'm surprised that the outcomes for Luke and Leia were not reversed in a rewrite. Strange.

The new kids from TFA have fared much better under Johnson. They're not particularly-deep characters. But, they at least do interesting things in this movie. Same for Snoke - who we can all thankfully forget about now, right?

Overall, I'm glad that this movie exists its current mixed-bag form. Sometimes it felt a little like the OT (the opening battle), sometimes it felt a little like the PT (Cato Bight), and sometimes it's something new and interesting (Rose; Kylo versus Luke).

I still look forward to Johnson's new trilogy. I also look forward to Episode 9. But, I'm less interested in both after watching TLJ.

[prox]

I'll just add 3 more things:

1) If using a kamikaze attack is enough to destroy a Star Destroyer, then have unmanned ships go into lightspeed should be a common tactic.

2) (copying my post from Reddit) Snoke's whole existence was built on power and mystery. He was cunning, strong, ancient, and a force to be reckoned with. When he was on screen, he was extremely interesting and I wanted to know more. We should have known more.

Instead he dies like a bitch. Sad. Nothing Kylo did in the movie put him on even remotely the same level as Snoke as an antagonist. I do buy that he's related to Vader though - in the worst possible way.

Plus if he was truly dark, he would have shot Leia's ship, not hesitated. In no way did I ever feel like he was nonredeemable and that's why I don't buy him as an antagonist.

3) I wish this was a four-parter and not a trilogy.

If we had two more films to go, then the pay off with Kylo, Rey etc would be worth it. Empire worked so well as a middle film because of the time gap. It made sense for Clones too, actually. Because there's no off-screen time for our heroes to develop, we're going into 9 with one less cycle than the heroes in VI and III. It's too much too soon and kinda throws the whole idea of the hero's journey out of position.

This was more of a 7.5 to me. Both in score and in terms of the episode.

[ki adi moonshine]

what I posted on FB:

This just was not a good film. I can't believe I'm saying I'm glad JJ is doing IX...at least he understands the essence of what Star Wars is...The Last Jedi has no identity at all. Tonally it's all over the place. Rey, Ben, and Luke are literally the only parts of the film that are great and those were pretty much pre-planned. There's too much that needs explaining in IX too. The prequels were much better than this. Sorry prequel haters, but some of the humor in this film was worse than Episode I. Star Wars is visual storytelling told with musical motifs, much like a silent film. At least Lucas' films were consistent in tone, I-VI. I actually think TFA is a lot better after watching this absolute mess.

Now what I will say with spoilers:

Casino scene was shit. Luke tossing his lightsaber ruined one of the most emotional scenes for me. Yoda looked like shitty CGI. like yoda in AOTC looked way better, and puppet yoda as well from the originals. I cannot believe that was a puppet. Force ghosts can use the force now? lmfao no. That just doesn't work.

Finn or Rose should have died. EVERYTHING with them was atrocious. Sitting on a single cruiser for over half a movie was just so bad.

I don't believe Rey is simply a nobody. That doesn't really make sense thematically within star wars. And there's no way her connection with the force is what it is without being connected to the Skywalker bloodline OR being born of the force itself, a literal manifestation of the force akin to Anakin. I don't think Ben knows anything about Rey, he's just saying that shit to say it.

If Luke doesn't return in the next film and give Rey some training, like, Rey's whole arc...we need some explanation of why she can do what she can do. She has the potential to be even stronger than Luke. If no explanation is given (I think we'll get one), then the trilogy is wasted. If he comes back and haunts Kylo, it will be great.

The only characters I like or care about are Ben, Luke, Rey, and Poe. Even Leia I just didn't care for at all. RIP Carrie Fisher it wasn't even that her performance was bad, I just feel they again missed a huge opportunity with her character in this trilogy. Rose was atrocious and should have died. The whole casino sequence was horrible. Why not cut that stuff out completely and give us a little Luke/Rey training before Rey leaves? Or at least some more Luke/Rey stuff? Also Luke not feeling Han's death through the Force isn't believable.

That being said, missed opportunities aside, everything with Rey, Ben, and Luke was awesome. Luke also proved he was the ultimate Jedi. He realized the Jedi's hubris, their flaws, they were just as bad as the Sith in many respects. The fact that he DIDN'T fight Ben proves he literally follows the Jedi way. He doesn't try to kill him. He doesn't fight him. He just dodges his every move and is a badass. He had ONE moment of weakness and was going to kill Ben on instinct, then stops himself, but Ben reacts and that is how Kylo Ren was created. Yoda or Obi-Wan would not have hesitated to kill him. Luke is so ashamed of himself that he leaves and becomes a recluse. His arc in the film was great. He has to appear in IX though. And honestly it will suck no Leia in the next film, but I actually think it's okay and won't affect things too badly. It may even enhance what we get.

The film itself though..god 2.5/5 stars. It just wasn't good.

[Bandersnatch]

What the fuck was that? A comedy? A parody?

That's how I felt after the first time I saw ROTJ in 1983.

Saw TLJ last night, and still processing everything. I really loved the movie, and even though I read a few spoilers here and there, I was totally drawn in and loved every surprising bit of it. I feel it's one of the most epic yet intimate of all the Star Wars movies. I was truly exhausted at the end.
Luke's fate was very moving for me, and I have no complaints about it. I'm just surprised that it happened in this movie and not in Ep.9.
No doubt he will be back in Ep.9 in spirit form. "See you around, kid..."


My only real concerns:

I agree with prox about Snoke. I loved his death, but we still needed just one little line of dialogue in TFA or TLJ about where he came from. It would add about 10 seconds to the film, and would be just enough explanation.

How did Kylo, Hux and Phasma get off of StarKiller Base before it imploded? "Because they did," I guess. But that's really a TFA problem.
How did Kylo get his mask/helmet back? I guess he could have had a spare, or made a new one.

Leia floating in space. I buy it on a fantasy level, but it went on a bit too long. But then again I bitched back in 1980 about Han, Leia and Chewie walking around inside an asteroid in ESB with nothing but an oxygen mask covering their noses and mouths. I'll get over it.

I read "The Pawn" spoilers, and like I suggested earlier in this thread, this moron couldn't have understood most of what he was watching.
Some examples:

No kylo helmet after he smashes it

Bullshit. It's on the elevator floor, as seen in the trailer. Try watching the fucking movie next time. Or once, even.

Rey’s lightsaber was destroyed / Reys lightsaber is destroyed and does not have one at end.

It was split in half, and perhaps reparable. She does still have it at the end.

Lots of humor.

No more than in any other Star Wars movie. I remember the first one was a hoot when seeing it in 1977.

No romance at all.

Rose talks about fighting for those we love, then kisses Finn.

Finn defeats Phasma but she falls of cliff.

She falls through a collapsing floor, not a cliff.

Finn and Poe do not have real big story arc.

Hell yes they do.

The books do not play any major part.

Yes, they do.

Rey does not even read them.

When would she have had time to do that? Or maybe she did. Did you want this movie to be 12 hours long?

Yoda appears and its definitely a puppet and not CGI.

We don't know if it was a puppet, CGI or both.

The blue ghost haze is not that great.

lol wut?

Instead of Luke force grabbing saber, It’s on stand next to Snoke.

Because Luke wasn't in that fucking scene. Jesus.

Maz does not have big role nor C-3PO, nothing stands out.

They do what they need to do. 3PO was fine, and didn't need much more screen time.

Another thing is when Luke is projected and walks in, it looks like a younger version of himself.
Either they CGI’d him or cleaned up Mark for the scenes.

He doesn't look that different. Just the hair. And of course it's not really him, it's a Force-projection.

So anyway...

[MannyOrtez]

Saw this last night and had very mixed feelings on it.

Goes without saying MAJOR SPOILERS below, but it seems we're openly talking about them here. So I'll proceed:

When I first saw TFA, I loved it and dismissed a lot of the criticism of it. But when I watched it recently, I found myself agreeing with most of the critiques.

I think Rian Johnson is actually a much better filmmaker than JJ Abrams, who is very generic and adds no value whatsoever. But I'm not sure what Johnson was thinking of here with the overall tone of the film. I saw parody & comedy referenced above, and that's what it felt like at times.

I had no problem with Snoke dying in the middle of the film. We don't need to know who he is or where he came from. He's just another angry old man who can use the force. His CG looked terrible in TFA and even worse in TLJ, and I was relieved when they killed off his character. Rian Johnson accurately assessed that the villain Abrams & Kasdan had come up with was a bust and moved on. Good call.

CG Yoda was horrible. He looked worse than in the prequels. His demeanor, and ridiculous laugh, was really corny and out of place. The fact that he can interact with the physical world makes no sense and was a terrible mistake. If he can conjure up lightning still, why isn't he lending a hand in battles?

Killing off Luke was pointless. There was no reason for him to die other than to make writing Ep 9 easier by leveling the playing field. Rey hasn't been trained, and there are now no original trilogy members to help carry Ep 9 along. If Carrie Fisher were around as Leia, I can see the logic. But they have to be realistic here - Leia is no longer available to them. Luke would've had a lot of utility.

Mark Hamil was very good.

I love Finn, but the entire Rose/Finn plotline obviously needed to be cut from the film, but it was too close to Johnson's heart. Story needs to trump theme, and he should've found a faster, more efficient way to raise those themes.

Visually, it honestly might be the best Star Wars film in that regards, and had some of the best set pieces. The Crait scene was incredible. The Rey, Kylo v Snoke's guards was also excellent.

Not sure what I think on the whole. There was a lot that was way off the mark, but a lot that was very good. It was a good, objective, less sentimental editor away from being a great film.

[Bandersnatch]

CG Yoda was horrible. He looked worse than in the prequels. His demeanor, and ridiculous laugh, was really corny and out of place. The fact that he can interact with the physical world makes no sense and was a terrible mistake. If he can conjure up lightning still, why isn't he lending a hand in battles?

Obi-Wan's ghost could interact in ROTJ. He sat on a log. Why does a ghost need to sit?
Yoda probably can't lend a hand in battles for the same reason Obi-Wan said in ESB - "You must do it alone. I cannot interfere."

[MannyOrtez]

CG Yoda was horrible. He looked worse than in the prequels. His demeanor, and ridiculous laugh, was really corny and out of place. The fact that he can interact with the physical world makes no sense and was a terrible mistake. If he can conjure up lightning still, why isn't he lending a hand in battles?

Obi-Wan's ghost could interact in ROTJ. He sat on a log. Why does a ghost need to sit?
Yoda probably can't lend a hand in battles for the same reason Obi-Wan said in ESB - "You must do it alone. I cannot interfere."

Hmm, I don't want to bog this down in the semantics on the physics of force ghosts...but I'm thinking Obi-Wan sitting on a log doesn't necessarily mean he interacted with the log. The log doesn't feel it. He's a ghost, his physical projection or whatever it is can bend any which way, so if he wants to look like he's sitting on a log, he can. Plus, people rightfully criticized that scene.

The "You must do it alone, I cannot interfere" thing is a cop-out, if, in fact, these force ghosts are physically able to interfere.

[MannyOrtez]

One more note -

I really think a lot of people are going to hate on this film just because it pushes some buttons politically and socially. The fact that the film has new female heroines, POC heroes, and has a populist sentiment is going to irk some of the fan boys. I think it's really disappointing someone would let their political views get in the way of enjoying a movie.

I actually liked that about the film, including the reveal about Rey's parentage. It was a refreshing take.

That said, I still disliked more of the film than I liked. But when it was good, it was great.

I'm not sure I've ever seen a film where I have oscillated between hating and loving it so rapidly.

[Monari]

Just saw it last night. I know that most people are usually dismissive of unsubstantiated criticism, so I’m going to try to be as forthright as I can be:

It was a very post-modernist film, in that it continued the work started by TFA in deconstructing the OT, its characters and their accomplishments, but did not go any further in attempting to expand or improve upon what came before. TLJ instead traded that need for progressive improvement of old ideas and themes for the sake of almost continuous shock-value twists that, while admittedly engage you in the moment, fall apart under the lightest of scrutiny, and were done purely to subvert audience expectations.

The humour was on par with a Guardians of the Galaxy movie – funny, but at the sake of any sort of dramatic build-up or character pathos, and totally inconsistent with the previous 7 movies. Remember that last scene in TFA, which had a chance to become the iconic moment of the sequels? Rey gives Luke back his lightsaber, with dramatic music swelling in the background, old, battle-hardened Luke looking stoic and wise….until he just tosses the saber aside for comic relief. This is pretty much the movie in a nutshell. Some (most) will love the movie for that, but don’t be angry that others don’t.

Probably the biggest issue I have with the movie is the character assassination of Luke Skywalker to further the plot. Just like Han in TFA, they not only reset Luke back to zero in this movie, but go one step further by having the guy who never gives up, the only person in the galaxy who still believed in the good in Darth Vader, contemplate killing his own nephew, then give up on everything he accomplished, exile himself to the most unfindable place in the galaxy (while leaving a map for some reason) and live like a broken hobo for 30 years before turning himself into a hologram and then dying (he used up all of his Force points I guess?). I get that people change as they grow older, but their fundamental natures do not, and the character I saw on screen was fundamentally not the Luke Skywalker that has been established over the past 40 years.

Ultimately, this movie will make a billion dollars, and the franchise will move forward, but I find that I have a general apathy now towards where it will go. I’m not going to make any dramatic pronouncements of how I’m never going to watch Star Wars again or that it’s been ruined for all time, but I will say that the movie’s main theme of “letting the past die” resonated with me in a way Disney likely did not expect, in that I realize that maybe it’s time to let go of the Star Wars that I remember and recognize that this series isn’t really for me anymore.

[royalguard96]

Initial thoughts after last night's screening...

If TFA was the Star Wars you knew, TLJ is the Star Wars you don't know. I don't know any other way to put it...Rian Johnson takes what you know and disregards it and places his own spin on it. When it works, goddamn it really works.

However, I do have some problems with it, problems I am allowing to dissolve upon additional viewings. Getting the negatives out of the way first.

The entire casino sequence could have been dropped from the film and I don't think we'd miss anything. I get that it was to link up Rose/Finn with DJ to keep that plotline moving, but it felt too elaborate to achieve that story point. But as I think about it more, the time we're actually in the casino isn't all that long.

The entire sequence surrounding the Laura Dern character could have been dropped and I don't think we'd miss anything. Her endgame of sacrificing herself and her ship could have been performed by anyone. There was nothing about her character that deemed it *had* to be her. Any random Resistance fighter could have done the same, and the act of heroism wouldn't have been diminished in any way.

Leia space-floating to safety? I mean, come on...I bought that skill when Superman did it in Man of Steel. The only justification I can come up with for that is maybe it was a skill Luke taught her during the time they spent together. I honestly thought that was Leia's death, when she got blown out of the ship. But her return to seeming good health makes me baffled at how they're going to handle her character in Ep. 9.

People who will bash on the film for its "politics" are looking for an axe to grind to compensate for their own misplaced anger. I pay these people no attention because they deserve none.

OK, now the good.

The acting performances were outstanding, led by Mark Hamill's performance as Luke, I loved what Rian did with the character, and Hamill absolutely crushed it. He commands the screen every second he's on, and he did such an amazing job at conveying the journey Luke has taken since ROJ. Just a masterful performance. Adam Driver also deserves some kudos here. He took his acting game to a new level coming off TFA, and really showed the kind of range that made his character something even more special.

Rey is the Luke for this generation and Daisy Ridley is living up to the legacy of that responsibility.

The visuals on Crait were remarkable. So unique but so Star Wars. Did anyone catch the Gareth Edwards cameo in the trench on Crait? I saw him immediately.

Luke's death was so powerful. It moved me more than scene in the entire saga. He was looking out at twin suns and he passed away exactly how Obi-Wan and Yoda did. So poetic and beautiful.

I think Force projection is going to cause a lot of angst in the fan base. But I would argue that Luke's Force powers grew to God-like proportions, so this would entirely be within his capabilities. I didn't click on any spoilers, but when he showed up on Crait, with a darker, more trimmed beard and less-gangly hair, I knew he wasn't really there. So I put together the Force projection theory together right away and I think it really worked.

Based on the Jedi school flashbacks, it appears the Kylo Ren turn didn't happen as many years removed from TFA as I would have guessed. I'm glad they spent more time on that monumental event in the saga's history, but it is still deserving of its own novel, hopefully sooner than later.

The Ray/Ren vs. the Praetorian Guards battle was just awesome.

Will the kid shown in the final shot be the subject of Rian's trilogy?

My updated ranking of the 9 films in the saga:

1. ROTS
2. ESB
3. Rogue One
4. ROJ
5. ANH
6. TLJ
7. TFA
8. AOTC
9. TPM

[MannyOrtez]

Ultimately, this movie will make a billion dollars, and the franchise will move forward, but I find that I have a general apathy now towards where it will go. I’m not going to make any dramatic pronouncements of how I’m never going to watch Star Wars again or that it’s been ruined for all time, but I will say that the movie’s main theme of “letting the past die” resonated with me in a way Disney likely did not expect, in that I realize that maybe it’s time to let go of the Star Wars that I remember and recognize that this series isn’t really for me anymore.

Extremely well said. Fair review.

[MannyOrtez]

People who will bash on the film for its "politics" are looking for an axe to grind to compensate for their own misplaced anger. I pay these people no attention because they deserve none.

Also well stated. And another good, fair review.

[Bandersnatch]

Her endgame of sacrificing herself and her ship could have been performed by anyone. There was nothing about her character that deemed it *had* to be her. Any random Resistance fighter could have done the same, and the act of heroism wouldn't have been diminished in any way.

I think I would have been ok with Leia doing that instead of Holdo.

[Hokusai]

I enjoyed it... but it seemed like a good movie based off another series... not a continuation of sorts. I can live with it, but it doesnt make me feel as excited as TFA did in terms of re-energizing a franchise. Lukes motivations didnt bother me once I saw the whole explanation, but its a huge leap and a u-turn, for the sake of what?

[royalguard96]

Additional thoughts...

Very few, if any references to the prequels. Not that here *had* to be but some links would have been nice. As many of you probably know, I'm a bigger prequel fan than most.

There were very tangible callbacks to each of the OT films. A lot of ESB (Luke-Rey training) but a lot of ROJ is in this film too, from the Porgs (Ewoks) to the Snoke throne room sequence. That was screaming Death Star II throne room scene to me, but it worked. And the twin suns sequence I spoke of earlier called back to ANH in a strong way.

As a filmmaker, it's really tricky to balance some of these elements, but I think Rian did as well as anyone could hope for.

As a group, we are pretty much impossible to please. If a film is too predictable, it gets the TFA backlash. I suspect this one will get a similar backlash for being too different.

[Bandersnatch]

Very few, if any references to the prequels. Not that here *had* to be but some links would have been nice. As many of you probably know, I'm a bigger prequel fan than most.

I thought Luke talking about Darth Sidious was good enough as a Prequel reference, and I'm also not a Prequel hater. Some haters even totally reject the entire Sidious / Palpatine / Clone Wars plot of the PT, so Luke talking about it in TLJ shows that they are not trying to ignore the PT, as some still insist.

[royalguard96]

Very few, if any references to the prequels. Not that here *had* to be but some links would have been nice. As many of you probably know, I'm a bigger prequel fan than most.

I thought Luke talking about Darth Sidious was good enough as a Prequel reference, and I'm also not a Prequel hater. Some haters even totally reject the entire Sidious / Palpatine / Clone Wars plot of the PT, so Luke talking about it in TLJ shows that they are not trying to ignore the PT, as some still insist.

Yes, you're correct...forgot about that bit. It does show Luke knows about the "full history" of the saga, so it's even more significant that he's the one to convey that to Rey.

I obviously need a couple more screenings lol

[Alexrd]

Very few, if any references to the prequels. Not that here *had* to be but some links would have been nice. As many of you probably know, I'm a bigger prequel fan than most.

I thought Luke talking about Darth Sidious was good enough as a Prequel reference, and I'm also not a Prequel hater. Some haters even totally reject the entire Sidious / Palpatine / Clone Wars plot of the PT, so Luke talking about it in TLJ shows that they are not trying to ignore the PT, as some still insist.

People using that simple mention as evidence of them not virtually ignoring or downplaying the PT (which is what's been happening as far as the big screen goes) are deliberately missing the point and grasping at straws.

[Bandersnatch]

It's not "grasping at straws" to quote the fucking movie. Jesus.

[Bandersnatch]

What do we expect them to mention? They werent there... "the trade federation... blah, blah"

Or maybe "Yipee!" or "Let's go and play ball!"

[Hokusai]

"this is pod racin!!!"

[Doctor When]

Just got back from watching The Last Jedi... totally and utterly dissapointed to be honest. After feeling burnt from TFA, I was really hoping Rian would recover it. Not for me unfortunately, and in some instances, I thought it even worse than TFA. A really strange showing, a full house, but very muted throughout and pretty much everyone left in silence once the credits rolled.

[Doctor When]

Ultimately, this movie will make a billion dollars, and the franchise will move forward, but I find that I have a general apathy now towards where it will go. I’m not going to make any dramatic pronouncements of how I’m never going to watch Star Wars again or that it’s been ruined for all time, but I will say that the movie’s main theme of “letting the past die” resonated with me in a way Disney likely did not expect, in that I realize that maybe it’s time to let go of the Star Wars that I remember and recognize that this series isn’t really for me anymore.

Extremely well said. Fair review.

Agree with you both... I too came away with the feeling that perhaps I’ve finally outgrown Star Wars (or Star Wars has outgrown me), but on reflection I think that’s bollocks. Ultimately I think these new films are vastly inferior to what went before, and my dissapointment just reflects the approach Hollywood is taking in cranking films out quicker and quicker, with no time given to ruminate on characters, narrative or situations. Even Williams score seems to reflect the blandness of the narrative.

[Bandersnatch]

These new films aren't really being cranked out any more quickly than the Lucas era films. It's just that they now have multiple productions in cooking in the oven all at once.
If you look at the pre-production, main shooting and post-production on TFA and TLJ, it's a good 3 years for each film.

[MannyOrtez]

Ultimately, this movie will make a billion dollars, and the franchise will move forward, but I find that I have a general apathy now towards where it will go. I’m not going to make any dramatic pronouncements of how I’m never going to watch Star Wars again or that it’s been ruined for all time, but I will say that the movie’s main theme of “letting the past die” resonated with me in a way Disney likely did not expect, in that I realize that maybe it’s time to let go of the Star Wars that I remember and recognize that this series isn’t really for me anymore.

Extremely well said. Fair review.

Agree with you both... I too came away with the feeling that perhaps I’ve finally outgrown Star Wars (or Star Wars has outgrown me), but on reflection I think that’s bollocks.

It makes me take a good long look at the saga in general. The first two films made are still - by far - the best two films. Force Awakens appeared to return SW to its glory but it hasn't aged well for me. With the prequels - I was pretty good at convincing myself at the time that they were good films. As I watch them now, their flaws are obvious. Heck they are even flawed in technical ways, some of the CG is bad, some of the sound is bad, some of the editing is bad. I never even realized that when I was younger. But the fact that Lucas made them gives them some gravitas. And I still feel that they are additive to the saga as a whole. TFA & TLJ feel like bad fan fiction when they misstep and do detract from the overall story.

With the prequels - the story ideas were fine, Lucas didn't execute them because he can't write dialogue or direct anymore. The flaws in the ST took root earlier in the writing process. With both Force Awakens & Last Jedi, it seems clear to me that the problem was that the creative forces couldn't let go of certain ideas that were obviously flawed, and bogged the movie down big time for it. The Rose/Finn plot was one of Johnson's babies - and you know what they say about screenwriting, you gotta kill the babies. It really had a huge ripple effect on the film, because it forced Johnson to contrive another plot to take place while Rose & Finn go off on this mission, which led to the absurd and whacky mutiny plot. For Force Awakens, the baby that needed killing was Star Killer base.

That said - I still liked lots of the Last Jedi, will probably see it another three times in the theater, buy myself the BluRay, etc. So, as a SW fan, I'm not going anywhere.

[Doctor When]

These new films aren't really being cranked out any more quickly than the Lucas era films. It's just that they now have multiple productions in cooking in the oven all at once.
If you look at the pre-production, main shooting and post-production on TFA and TLJ, it's a good 3 years for each film.

TFA came out in 2015 and by 2018 we’ll have had 4 Star Wars films in 3 years. That’s substantualy higher than the Lucas era. It’s a new film every year for the foreseeable future... and even just counting the new saga films, and not ‘anthology’, they are producing them every two year where Lucas was every 3. And in my opinion it shows. I get that production on the films overlaps, but that in itself onlsy serves to constrain development. This further impacts narrative substance and characterisation IMHO. But what do I know? They are making zillions. I just believe them to be vastly inferior.

[Doctor When]

It makes me take a good long look at the saga in general. The first two films made are still - by far - the best two films. Force Awakens appeared to return SW to its glory but it hasn't aged well for me. With the prequels - I was pretty good at convincing myself at the time that they were good films. As I watch them now, their flaws are obvious. Heck they are even flawed in technical ways, some of the CG is bad, some of the sound is bad, some of the editing is bad. I never even realized that when I was younger. But the fact that Lucas made them gives them some gravitas. And I still feel that they are additive to the saga as a whole. TFA & TLJ feel like bad fan fiction when they misstep and do detract from the overall story.

With the prequels - the story ideas were fine, Lucas didn't execute them because he can't write dialogue or direct anymore. The flaws in the ST took root earlier in the writing process. With both Force Awakens & Last Jedi, it seems clear to me that the problem was that the creative forces couldn't let go of certain ideas that were obviously flawed, and bogged the movie down big time for it. The Rose/Finn plot was one of Johnson's babies - and you know what they say about screenwriting, you gotta kill the babies. It really had a huge ripple effect on the film, because it forced Johnson to contrive another plot to take place while Rose & Finn go off on this mission, which led to the absurd and whacky mutiny plot. For Force Awakens, the baby that needed killing was Star Killer base.

That said - I still liked lots of the Last Jedi, will probably see it another three times in the theater, buy myself the BluRay, etc. So, as a SW fan, I'm not going anywhere.

Yep I generally agree. For all the prequels faults, there’s a narrative and creative cohesion/consistency that makes the sum better than the parts. For me, they still feel closer to the originals than the new films. It’s a fine line, as I don’t want to offend any fan of TFA and TLJ, but for me the sequels feel way too removed from the vision and context of Lucas’. Now being removed from that vision isn’t necessarily a bad thing, in fact I welcome progression and a different perspective. However, I don’t think that separation is by design, I think it’s because (as you allude to) the new execs have focused on elements that they consider to be more fundamental to Star Wars e.g pace, ‘frontier’ settings, contemporary wise cracks, faux mystery, the established iconography of the empire/rebels etc. They’ve not focused on plot, characters and artistic creativity... and it’s weaker for it.... again in my opinion.

[Topeka]

Hot garbage. A farce. I've never wanted to walk out of a Star Wars movie before The Last Jedi.

[Bandersnatch]

These new films aren't really being cranked out any more quickly than the Lucas era films. It's just that they now have multiple productions in cooking in the oven all at once.
If you look at the pre-production, main shooting and post-production on TFA and TLJ, it's a good 3 years for each film.

TFA came out in 2015 and by 2018 we’ll have had 4 Star Wars films in 3 years. That’s substantualy higher than the Lucas era. It’s a new film every year for the foreseeable future... and even just counting the new saga films, and not ‘anthology’, they are producing them every two year where Lucas was every 3. And in my opinion it shows. I get that production on the films overlaps, but that in itself onlsy serves to constrain development.

Concerning release dates, you are correct. But there was a ton of work already done on TLJ by the time TFA came out. It's not like they started working on TLJ in January 2016. They already had been working on it for a year while TFA was in post. I get what you mean about the overlap in production time potentially causing some constraint, though. However, Disney/Lucasfilm has thousands of employees, whereas Lucas's Lucasfilm had a couple of thousand. There's stuff being worked on all the time there now, not just one film at a time. Lucas would spend 3 years on each film, but take about 6 months off after shooting and before going into post, because he could. He illustrates that on one of the Blu Ray commentaries.

[bearvomit]

What in super Christ did I just watch?

1. I checked my watch about 3 good times , wondering if they've heard of an editor.

2. What kind of thrift store Muppet did they paint and call it Yoda? Someone should be fired over that.

3. Flying SPACE-LEIA. ..... um, yeah..

Snoke going out like a bitch WAS pretty good though.


Better than AOTC but not by much.


ESB>>ANH>>ROTJ>>ROTS>>RO>>TFA>>TPM>>TLJ>>AOTC

[Joe1138]

Liked catching up and reading everyone's thoughts so far.

This is not a bad movie, as Lucas himself has been quoted as saying, it's very beautifully made and I tend to agree. The problem I have with The Last Jedi, beyond Johnson's character and story decisions, is that this movie just isn't very fun. At 2 and a half hours, this flick is a slog and at times a bore. Some of this has to do with pacing, some of this has to do with my lack of interest in seeing a bland new character like Rose in a major subplot right in the middle of the film.

I'm kind of spent and exhausted with Star Wars in general right now. I watched ROTJ the night before seeing TLJ and was completely wrapped up in the film despite having seen it (likely) hundreds of times by this point in my life. I was excited by the prospects of a new take on my beloved space adventure from a director who has been very good in the past but was crestfallen to realize that by the end of the film, The Last Jedi merely teased us with new and dangerous ground yet to be covered. We're right back to where we started with these movies with our moral ambiguity resolved; the good guys are good and bad guys are very bad. But when the series already has a satisfying conclusion in episode VI, what's the point? I felt like I empathized with the Resistance loyalists Leia and company were trying to signal at the end of the film more than anyone else in the movie; I hear the call, I just don't want to answer.

[visitor2001]

I had the pleasure of watching a double bill of The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi last night.


I personally, think The Last Jedi to be one of the best Saga films.

The depth and the verve and the detail are astonishing. This film is exceptional particularly for
attention to character motivation.

There's a dexterity to this film that works in tandem with the storytelling to produce a
new energy for this serial.

Ireland?

[Doctor When]

These new films aren't really being cranked out any more quickly than the Lucas era films. It's just that they now have multiple productions in cooking in the oven all at once.
If you look at the pre-production, main shooting and post-production on TFA and TLJ, it's a good 3 years for each film.

TFA came out in 2015 and by 2018 we’ll have had 4 Star Wars films in 3 years. That’s substantualy higher than the Lucas era. It’s a new film every year for the foreseeable future... and even just counting the new saga films, and not ‘anthology’, they are producing them every two year where Lucas was every 3. And in my opinion it shows. I get that production on the films overlaps, but that in itself onlsy serves to constrain development.

Concerning release dates, you are correct. But there was a ton of work already done on TLJ by the time TFA came out. It's not like they started working on TLJ in January 2016. They already had been working on it for a year while TFA was in post. I get what you mean about the overlap in production time potentially causing some constraint, though. However, Disney/Lucasfilm has thousands of employees, whereas Lucas's Lucasfilm had a couple of thousand. There's stuff being worked on all the time there now, not just one film at a time. Lucas would spend 3 years on each film, but take about 6 months off after shooting and before going into post, because he could. He illustrates that on one of the Blu Ray commentaries.

Yep but that’s kind of the point to me... It’s a form of Mcdonaldisation, where the focus is more on pushing the next product out rather than crafting a story/film. The overlap constricts that critical development, which results (IMO) in rather underdeveloped plots and characters. One can throw more resource and money at the development to ensure dates are met, (which they are clearly doing) but it doesn’t improve the qualative nature of it... in fact I believe it hurts it. But again, what do I know... as several critics are already claiming TLJ to be the best ever Star Wars film? I’m just waiting for them to do a cross over with Guardians of the Galaxy... which at this point seems inevitable.

[ki adi moonshine]

Okay, Star Wars is full of politics, but this film beats you over the head on the casino planet with rose and the political *preaching* she spouts. I'm sorry but I don't need to be lectured like a child like that. Star Wars is never overt like that; generally it's more subtle, like in the originals. In the prequels, there's the politicking of the senate, but it never preaches or lectures. And the whole Finn/Rose story arc was pointless filler and I didn't care about the characters at all. It had nothing to do with the fact that they were POC, it had to do with the fact that they just weren't interesting characters at all. Finn's pure purpose in this film is to defeat Phasma. They should have let him sacrifice himself.

Like seriously they could have cut this film down so much. It was just poorly structured and horribly paced. It's not only the worst star wars film it's just a bad film.