ROTS to ROTJ: Why Hayden as a Ghost?

[Moiner007]

Upon first seeing Hayden Christensen's smiling face at the end of Return of the Jedi, I became almost sick to my stomach. Was this really what the Old Trilogy was coming too? Replacing actors in scenes with new actors from the prequels? However, after some thinking on the matter, I have come to only one logical explaination for his appearance at the end of the film. I would consider this spoiler material, so if you don't wanna know, stop reading.


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We know that when you die as a Jedi, your form will be preserved as it was as a Jedi. I think it's fairly safe to assume that Anakin doesn't just come close to death, but does infact die altogether in Revenge of the Sith. Only from the healing powers and technology of the Emperor are they able to preserve his body and rebuild him into Darth Vader. Obi-Wan even says he's more machine than human in ROTJ. Thus, if Anakin does infact die at the end of ROTS, Luke burning his body would allow him to return as a spirit. I'm almost positive that the spirit thing will be explained. There hasn't been a Jedi Spirit yet, and that was kind of a big thing in the Old Trilogy. How does one become more powerful than the other could possibly imagine. We will soon see. As for Hayden now appearing as a ghost, something that happens in Episode III triggered this change.

Moiner

[cGt 2099]

I think it is probably more in line with the concept that with turning to the dark side, Anakin for all intents and purposes was dead - and all that stood in his place was Vader.

[reala]

I think both could be construed as true. "He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader".

[TiniTinyTony]

One explanation I heard that people seemed to like was since Anakin is the chosen one and born of the midi-chlorians, when he dies, he returns to the force as pure midi-chlorians and can appear as a force ghost in whatever form he chooses.

And since he ceases to be Anakin when he becomes Darth Vader, it is seemingly logical that he appears as his younger self before he doned the suit. Plus of course he is more machine than man, but we don't know how much more. If he turns out to just be a head on a machine body, then it's understandable that most of his body has returned to the force already and it's just waiting for the rest.

And we do see Vader in his meditation chamber alot in ESB. Is he unlocking the secrets of becoming a force ghost after seeing Obi-wan disappear before his eyes, or is he just meditating on how he is going to take over the Empire with his son?

It's pretty much left up to our imagination for the most part, but with the information about how one becomes a force ghost in Episode III will be key information in forming any other thoughts or opinions on the subject of Hayden in ROTJ. Lucas put him there for a REASON and we'll better understand it in 2005. I hope.

[Google]

if he dies for real, like his body ceases life, then how does he age? I would think a cyborg would never age.

[corellian77]

My problem with Hayden appearing as a force ghost is that that is NOT the way he looked the last time he was "good" (assuming, of course, this is what dictates a ghost's appearance). As I see it, the moment Vader threw Palpatine into the reactor core, he regained the good part of himself, conquered the dark side, and once again became a Jedi. That being the case, the last image of Anakin as a "good guy" was as an older man -- the guy Luke sees when Vader is unmasked. So, from that point of view, the image of Anakin should still be that of Sebastian Shaw.

Also, simply for simplicity's sake, it would make more sense for Luke to see the face of the man he just unmasked moments earlier (and therefore recognize as his father) rather than see the face of a stranger.

I know some have argued that that is the form he has to come back in, since that was the last time his body was "whole." To that, I say 1) he HAD lost his arm at this point, and that doesn't seem to be an issue, and 2) as long as we're buying into the idea of ghosts, I think we could suspend our disbelief that extra bit and assume, as spirits, Jedi come back as a whole-looking person.

All that being said, I'm not crazy about the change. However, it is relatively small and still (somewhat) consistent, and not something I would lose sleep over. Besides, there is still the possiblity that the change will make sense/be justified after seeing the events of ROTS, as others have pointed out here.

[Moiner007]

Apparently Lucas is going to explain this in the commentary according IGN. Sounds interesting, nonetheless, you may want to avoid those commentary tracks until after Episode III. Or maybe it's not a big deal, I don't know.

Moiner

[Ayatollah Krispies]

Isn't it just possible that the Chosen One can look like whatever the hell he wants to in ghost form, and he chooses to adopt the form that he had the last time he was truly happy?

I mean, is this REALLY that complicated?

[Jedi Master Matt]

no, you've got it all wrong.

Ghosts are supposed to come back as people with sheets over their heads or Patrick Swazye.

So if the choice is between a young Anakin or the Swayze, I'll always take young Ani.

Seriously, why the big fuckin deal about the apperance of ghosts. When you die, do you keep aging? I don't have any problems with the Ani was already dead thing or him simply wanting to appear before his son as the person he should have been. Kinda his way of showing Luke he was right all along.

I do have a problem with the way Hayden acts in the scene; but, his appearence - meh.

[tcobby]

I think it makes sense. The spirit should be the character's projection of themselves. Obi-Wan appears as an old man because that is what he grew into. That is where he was comfortable and that was his self image. Anakin, having been briefly resurrected, would not suddenly see himself as the old man that his body had grown into. He doesn't even know what he looks like. And if his spirit had anything to do with his physical body, he would not have magically healed his scars, grown his hair back, (got it cut) and acquired new robes. (Although he must've forgotten what he used to wear, looks like he just copied Obi-Wan's ghost...

It would've been cool if they morphed Sebastian Shaw's ghost into Hayden or something

[Exodus]

I think this could come down to religious interpretation in some ways. Especially to those that support the views of reincarnation.

If indeed Anakin dies in ROTS, then one must summise that Vader is in fact the walking dead.

Which I find pretty cool now I think about it.

[Lofcutus]

In my opinion, which probably doesn't matter in whole grand scheme of things, the appearance of the Hayden-Anakin is to make Obi-Wan seem like a little less of a lying dork bag tricking Luke into coming with him all those years ago on Tatooine.

The whole "certain Point of view" thing...granted, Obi-Wan's meeting with Luke would have sucked if he had been straight with him:

"Yeah, Luke, see you're dad was a prick that turned on all of us, beat the crap out of the Jedi order and helped the Emperor keep the galaxy in line by killing anyone that may have possibly gotten in the way. By the way, he was sort of duped into it, because he was a gullible, emotional dumbass that ignored most of the Jedi traditions and teachings. But, I'm sure he's want you to take this lightsaber, I got it from his severed robotic hand after I knocked him into a pool of lava, lets go to a bar!"

So to justify Obi-wan's actions Lucas revises the party-ghosts as Hayden so that he can show that "from a certain point of view" Anakin did indeed die and Vader was born from his defeat.


Soooo, long post short, nothing more than justification of dialogue written almost 30 years ago...

[darthvodka]

Here's my take on the Hayden ghost: Anakin dies,the power of the dark side ressurects him (he's the ultimate zombie-if you don't include Jesus).As anakin died looking like hayden thats how he comes back, the old whitey half head is Zombie Skywalker. I don't think GL actively pursues ways to piss us all off with effects,i think he probably thought he had to use Hayden in ROTJ to avoid a plot inconsistency.


The dark side provides some form of energy to keep his midichlorians working (hate energy probably-nasty stuff) and the electronics/machinery help provide the breathing. Perhaps Vader was practicing how long he could breathe without aid (in his little pod in ESB) as he forsaw the outcome of fighting Luke in ROTJ??? Longshot I know, but perhaps knowing he had a son reminded him of the prophecy of the chosen one, making him torn between " I MUST obey my Master" duties and fullfilling the chosen one prophecy and killing the Emporer. I bet anakin was able to shield his thoughts from the emporer and the emporer knew it, hence the emporer knew that he personally had to turn young skywalker as daddy vader could not be trusted once it came to family.The anakin/vader story mirrors parts of the christ story,except anakin falls in love and succumbs to the temptations of power,but is ressurected from death,GL wants this story to be a myth for kids (and adult kids too I expect).

Also (sorry this is so long-last bit), in ESB Vader gets Luke to come to Bespin knowing that Luke will be sensitive to the long distance pain of his friends (as Anakin was sensitive to the long distance suffering of his mother Shmi). From Vaders point of view, the suffering and death of his ma will be either the worst or second worst experience of pain in his life (depending onhow he eventually feels about Padme and overlooking the mild discomfort of burning in a volcano with your legs sabred off). Now doesn't using evoking similar pain in his son to lure him make him a complete sadistic bastard?Top villainy,

roar on GL you crazy mofo

[anhesbrotj]

Ok, I'm new here but heres my opinion:
Anakin doesnt die (physically) but as mentioned several times above, he ceases to be anakin and becomes Vader. So, when his force ghost appears, it is in his last "good guy" form. And for those of you who say, "Luke turned him back into anakin in ROTJ."-- that would mean (if we're still talking in terms of how they looked when they died) his force ghost would appear wounded, burnt, and decrepit...and lets face it, no one would watch that movie

[Insert Username]

^ I'm thinking something similar to that, not that it's crucial to my enjoyment of the films or anything. Maybe the Force ghost shows the residual image of the Jedi when they last knew the "light side" of the Force.

[Insert Username]

I dunno but it makes sense in a GL kinda way

[Lord Tuvitor]

I think Force Ghosts might manifest as something of an 'idealized identity' constructed in the mind of the Jedi whose spirit passes over. As Yoda and Obi-Wan were more settled into their OT bodies, they identified themselves with that look, but Anakin Skywalker when he returned shed the 'idealized identity' of Darth Vader, which restored Anakin's identity. This concept allows his Force Ghost to appear as younger Anakin, if this is how he viewed his true self after returning to the Light Side.

This interpretation also need not require Shaw's replacement in the scene where Luke removed Vader's helmet.

[padmeisthebest]

[color=red][/color]Here's what pisses me off. It has pretty much been confirmed that Padme will die at the end of Episode 3 and although she's not a Jedi I feel that at the end of Episode 6 (since Hayden got to come back) that she should be able to come back to. So on one side you have the older ghosts- Yoda and Obi- and on the other side you have the newever or younger ghosts- Aniken (as he appeared in episodes 2 and 3) and Padme (as she has always appeared). This would also tie in nicely with the shot of Luke and Leia before they re-join the rest of the group.
Just my oppinon but thats what I really thought George should have done.

[threeowls]

Here's what pisses me off. It has pretty much been confirmed that Padme will die at the end of Episode 3 and although she's not a Jedi I feel that at the end of Episode 6 (since Hayden got to come back) that she should be able to come back to. So on one side you have the older ghosts- Yoda and Obi- and on the other side you have the newever or younger ghosts- Aniken (as he appeared in episodes 2 and 3) and Padme (as she has always appeared). This would also tie in nicely with the shot of Luke and Leia before they re-join the rest of the group.
Just my oppinon but thats what I really thought George should have done.

...that is the dumbest thing i've ever heard. She's not a jedi, she shouldn't come back. The ghost of anakin was already there

[padmeisthebest]

I know she's not a Jedi- I said that in the first place- I just thing it would be a niece idea to show her there.

[2k4Vader]

lucas said the jedi dont age and come back as the original form, u know when yoda and ben died that was there time to be with the force and they didn't age and if either anyone of these 3 would have died in the prequels u would have seen hayden or yoda (episodes 1+2) and obi wan would have been ewan as a ghost u catch my drift

[padmeisthebest]

Listen up everyone I found our answer. Watch the scene in Episode 6 where Luke sets fire to Darth Vader at his funeral ceremony with Audio Commentary. At this piont George Lucas describes in some detail how the whole Jedi Ghost thing works- including why Aniken returns in the form of Hayden.

[rhonderoo]

Isn't it just possible that the Chosen One can look like whatever the hell he wants to in ghost form, and he chooses to adopt the form that he had the last time he was truly happy?

I mean, is this REALLY that complicated?

Wow. Sanity. It doesn't have to be explained.

[Projbalance]

Another addition to the ideas being thrown around here. I was watching TESB with the commentary an Lucas mentioned how Obi-Wan willingly joined the force, thus being able to keep his identity. Ok, heres my thought: What if that's what Anakin meant to do when he drops(falls) into the lava(if that's what happens). Maybe he meant to cross over to the other side and join with the force, thus finally having the power he wanted to have. Before he can do this, though, Palps "rescues" him and puts him on life support, preventing him from crossing over and trapping his spirit in the Vader shell. Since the machines keep him alive, and he's too damn strong for anyone to kll him, he'd be pretty pissed off to have to just keep going.

[threeowls]

Would anyone happen to have a screen capture of this hayden-ghost. As of yet, I do not have the trilogy dvd.