MF HARDCOPY: Always Two There Are

[darthpsychotic]

http://www.millenniumfalcon.com

[Zidious]

Isn't Anakin the one saying "Never!"?

[CoGro]

C'mon man. It's pretty easy- it's a "I can't have her. No one can." kind of thing. Besides, he's pretty much out of his fucking GOURD right there.

Let's put it in script form:


ANAKIN
You won't take her away from me

(pause)

NEVER!



That's how it will read. You meaning "The Jedi" and not really Obi Wan specifically.

Congratulations to TC, Vanda, and the other guy (can't remember who you were dude, sorry) for correctly guessing after "Ponderings" that Anakin's attempted "betrayal" was related to Padme.

I like how this scene plays out. Sounds real fuckin nasty. There's no way this thing gets a PG. Won't happen. And I don't even think Lucas WANTS it to happen.

To be honest, i'll be real shocked if it doesn't get a PG.
Sure there are alot of scary elements and strong violence in the film, but I can see Lucas finding a way to get the PG, somehow.

People were thinking AOTC was going to be PG 13 as well cause of strong content (jango beheaded, Tusken slaughter) but it wasn't. If it DOES happen to be rated PG13, then there's going to be stuff in this film displayed in a manner very un-Star Wars like.

[Zidious]

And it sounds like Anakin gets the yellow eyes when he's angry.

He tries to convince Padme to let Palpatine declare himself Emperor.
Palpatine hasn't declared himself Emperor yet?

[Wrath Mania]

Actually, Ternian seems to think that Palpatine never does it in the movie.

The whole scene were he addresses the senate in the red robe after the Mace fiasco, he's placing marshall law or something on the Jedi. Not nessecarily declaring himself Emperor.

Also, if I recall correctly, a novelization snippet JG or someone gave us with Palpatine spewing lightning at an enemy, he was still called the Supreme Chancellor. Now, at first I thought it was from the Windu battle.... except it's not storming outside in the Windu battle (as seen in the trailer), yet the novelization snippet it was.

Therefore, it's probably from the Yoda battle. Which means Sidious ain't Emperor yet. And even better, it will be thundering during the great battle in the senate.

EDIT: Forget everything I just said, as it was disproven below. Except maybe the whole storm while in the senate thing.

[Zidious]

At TF.N, Ternian said:

Palaptine declares himself Emperor to the thunderous applause of the Senate.

Perhaps the Yoda / Sidious fight happens right after this, which would explain why Sidious is in the Senate building.

[Ternian]

He does declare himself Emperor. Padme is totally against it and walks out on Palpatine. Anakin is trying to convince her to stay and support the move.

[tattguy]

rock on man this is going to be the shit. the thing i love the best is that he is in fact vader at the time. that just kicks ass

[Ternian]

Anakin is on Mustafar. Killing off the Separatists.

[darthpsychotic]

Mas Amedda and Sly Moore are by Sidious's side when the Emperor Declaration takes place. Also for the slow people, this was the betrayal scene that was referenced in T's Ponderings thread.

[Wrath Mania]

So the Jedi Temple massacre takes place before Palpatine declares himself Emperor? Which would mean he addresses the Senate before that to declare Marshall Order on the Jedi... or that happens off screen?

[CoGro]

People were thinking AOTC was going to be PG 13 as well cause of strong content (jango beheaded, Tusken slaughter) but it wasn't.

Attack of the Clones, tonally, was very different, though. Incredibles was PG and had a lot of the same sorts of violence, implied and otherwise. So you can draw a parallel between AOTC and Incredibles, at least content wise (I happen to think Incredibles is a MUCH better movie than AOTC, however) In the end, the good guys do right and they win, and there is a bright day at the end of it all, a shining sun to close out the movie

Revenge of the Sith, however, is going to be very relentless, tonally. It gets dark and stays that way, for long periods of time. Tusken massacre is offscreen, and they're aliens. Jango is a bad guy. But the jedi are humans, and they're good guys. Mace is a good guy, and he's dismembered by the main character.

We're going to be watching a lot of HEROES get their asses thoroughly kicked, and kicked badly. And even if the violence isn't bloody, it's that tone that's going to get it the PG-13, a very bleak, dour tone that does not let up and does not lead to a happy ending. There are several cold-blooded murders in this movie performed by the main protagonist, Anakin. That's going to weigh heavily on the board members minds.

Rewind to 1980. The Empire Strikes Back saw it's main 2 heroes have a hand cut off and put into a violent deep freeze. The villains win from beginning to end, destroying the good guys in a battle, and then beating them in man to man combat. The film got a PG.

Moreover, the entire tone of the movie is dark, dampening and violent, from a bloody faced Luke being swatted by an ice creature, to a beaten faced Luke hanging by a leg at the film's end. I'd say the ending to that film left a real sense of hopelessness to the people in 1980 who didn't know what was coming next. We do since the film A NEW HOPE has already been made.

Sure, you may be able to say "the good guy turns bad and that's a psychological issue that would lead to a PG13" but then again, the same issue was on GL's mind about the plot twist and the tone of Empire. I'll eat my words if you're right. But I'm very confident the movie will be PG. George will get what he wants.

[Zidious]

But there was no PG-13 back then, right?

[Ziggy]

This isn't directed at anyone specifically, but I've been involved in SW spoilers since 1998 and I just don't get the rating fixation. Every film the same damn thing crops up.

The moveis will be rated, what they're rated. Parents will have ample opportunity to read reviews and decide if their children are able to handle the films.

If you're over 17 it doesn't matter in the slightest anyway.




Great spoiler! Thanks for the hook up guys.

[Joe1138]

Yeah, PG-13 wasn't instated until Temple of Doom, right?

Looks like the flick ("Sith") will, unfortunately, be rated PG-13. I have faith that Lucas knows what he's doing with this extreme change in both the tone and nature of the Star Wars saga as we know it though.

[vanillazinger]

Man, that's maybe the last major piece of the plot puzzle right there. Sweet. I'll be honest with you, even including the temple massacre, this is the first scene I've heard that reminds me 100% of OT Vader, the glorious megalomaniac from ESB.

And this, it strikes me, must largely be what will make us view Vader in a different light in the OT, as we were told so long ago. Not only was Vader always a reluctant servant of the Emperor, but he wanted to rule the galaxy from day one. When he walks onto the Tantive at the beginnng of ANH, he's been frustrated in that ambition for two decades. He's still flying around with Jedi-era, angled ion engines, carrying a lightsaber and talking about how the Force is mightier than a cannon that can blow up a planet in one shot. He's surrounded by officious uniformed chumps whom he'd just as soon kill as look at. After twenty year, he still won't let go.

Wow. This is fitting together better than I had hoped.

[foxbatkllr]

[Palpy]

According to one of my friends he says it was a Spilberg film that started the PG-13 era. He can't remember which one though.

Read the post just above yours :

Yeah, PG-13 wasn't instated until Temple of Doom, right?

[Joe1138]

According to one of my friends he says it was a Spilberg film that started the PG-13 era. He can't remember which one though.

Read the post just above yours :

Yeah, PG-13 wasn't instated until Temple of Doom, right?

I think he overlooked my post because I have a chick as my avatar; sexist pig.

[Ziggy]

Didn't mean to rant too much, but the ratings talk, box office horcerace crap, and Canon are the three SW topics that annoy the everliving shit out of me. The same crap is said every single time. Only the names of the posters change.


Ignore me. It's new years eve, and I'm a little drunk.

[Zidious]

I'd assume Bail, Obi and Yoda decide to wipe the droid(s) in order to ensure the secret identity of the children is not discovered.

[stan Marsh]

Seriously, tho..If it's new years and you're drunk, get off teh Internet, man I haven't even started drowning my liver yet, that's why I'm still on. You can believe when it's lush-time, I'll be doing anything BUT plugging into the net.

word up! great spoilers tonight tern! Just in time before i head out and do me some drinking and shit... ya'll have a good new years

[vanillazinger]

Other comments about the report:

- What an awesome way to debut Vader's signature move. Audiences will go nuts!

- How interesting that Anakin is willing to let Obi-Wan get away. Is it some last vestige of humanity left in him? Or is it that every son is intimidated at a gut level by his father (figure)? Traces of humanity or traces of cowardice? "I don't fear" indeed... he's full of fear, of the kind Yoda spoke about way back in TPM.

- Anakin offering to let Obi-Wan go is the other bookend to "You should not have come back." How much more bitter that line will sound after ROTS. Nice.

- The Empire has always been a metaphor for Anakin's possessive Dark Side. Now the pieces from both trilogies fit together. Anakin asks Padme to rule the Empire with him - metaphorically as well as literally to join him in evil. Of course this destroys them both, and with Padme seems to die the last vestige of Anakin's good side. But it's still there, hidden away, represented not only by the metaphor of the children but later, by the secret rebellion against the Empire, which he desperately tries to quash. He can't let go of the Empire - his Dark Side. The rebellion represents his good side struggling to come out again. Luke = the rebellion just as Vader = the Empire. Only at the end of the saga, inspired by Padme's legacy in Luke, does he realize that letting go is more powerful than clinging greedily. He overthrows his Dark Side metaphorically by literally overthrowing the Emperor.

Ahh, it's nice to see everything coming together.

[darthpsychotic]

The thing that stuck out to me about the report was 3P0 and R2 dragging Amidala's body unto the ship.

[I_SHOT_JR]

Didn't Hidalgo say somewhere that Threepio "carries" someone at some point in the movie...

[HST]

re: you do realize that r2 talked to luke right?

He also talked to Anakin or will i bet, and its no coincidence.

[vanillazinger]

I thought we'd pretty much figured out that part, after putting together that the skiff ramp sequence was where the dragging/carrying took place. Still, no wonder 3PO accepts a memory wipe. Yikes.

[Menlo Park Rat]

The only reason the PG-13 thing is significant to me is that I worry about Lucas cutting material and or toning things down to get the PG rating after the MPAA possibly gives it the higher rating.

Does anyone else recall Griffin mentioning there were two cuts of the film - a toned down "PG" version and the cut Lucas really wanted?

I'm not certain how true that is or was, or if George even gives a shit about getting a PG this time around, but I'll be fairly dissapointed if he compromises on his vision and we miss out.

[vanillazinger]

Don't forget, though, that just because it doesn't make the final cut doesn't mean Lucas has compromised his vision. Some scenes might seem much worse when fully rendered in context than they did during writing or filming. Lucas could develop a gnarly burned-Anakin or some dead younglings just to see how they play, and decide they're too much. Heck, PG might be an integral part of Lucas's vision.

[Luukeskywalker]

The fact that he attempts to make himself believe it is still about his wife ("Join me and together we can rule the universe as husband and wife") is a storytelling masterstroke by Lucas.

I think this whole prequel trilogy is turning out to be a storytelling masterstroke.

[Ethril]

I think this whole prequel trilogy is turning out to be a storytelling masterstroke.

One day, people will get it. Years from now, when the hype and controversty and spoilers and midnight lines are all gone, people will start sitting down and watching this simply as the 12 hour thing it was meant to be, and they will be fucking blown away.

You think that "I am your father" is a plot twist? Psh.. Imagine this.. You're seeing these films for the first time in chronological order, 1-6, here's a space opera movie, you have the good Jedi, and the bad Sith who have started a war.. Episodes 1 and 2, the plot thus far is your two hero Jedi, Anakin and Obi-Wan, have to find and destroy the Sith.. Anakin is the HERO of the saga, here.. There's a subplot of new badguys as one Sith apprenitice dies and we're introduced to the next one.. and you're going along, Episode 3, they're coming close to finally figuring out who the Sith master is and then... everything goes upside down, and Anakin, of all characters, ends up becoming the new apprentice, and killing half the secondary protagonists, including his love, who the whole second film was structured around. Holy shit! I mean, that's a plot twist. People would be outraged, and walking out of the theaters.. kids would be traumatized.. This is some powerful stuff.

[Menlo Park Rat]

While it doesn't fix some of the flaws of the first two films, I definitely agree that Episode III is pulling it all together and will show just how well all six films work as a whole.

[Luukeskywalker]

While it doesn't fix some of the flaws of the first two films, I definitely agree that Episode III is pulling it all together and will show just how well all six films work as a whole.

True. It also won't fix some of the flaws of the OT either.

[Darkseid]

Man, I'll never be able to look at 3PO the same way again after I see him carry off Padme, in his big, strong, golden arms.

It's like he instantly loses 50 gay points.

[vanillazinger]

Vader is a slave at heart. Without a loved one to give him real strength, he fears his master. Without Luke he would never have done in the Emperor. Without Padme he can't muster the will, either. Heck, apparently he even gives Obi-Wan a chance to escape, thereby avoiding The Duel. For all of his power, without love he's only a coward. Pretty powerful point.

[elevendayempire]

"Join me, and we can rule the galaxy as husband and wife..." Nice.

...well, I'm glad I didn't piss away my money signing up for Hyperspace.

SG

[Antiriad]

Bloody hell! Spoilers of spoilers!

I mean! I figured Anakin would betray Sidious for the woman he loves (np Fatboy ) but didnt realise he was that far gone that he wanted to rule the Galaxy instead of him!

[Jedi Master Matt]

It's not about love - it's about power.

Vader is a slave at heart. Without a loved one to give him real strength, he fears his master. Without Luke he would never have done in the Emperor. Without Padme he can't muster the will, either. Heck, apparently he even gives Obi-Wan a chance to escape, thereby avoiding The Duel. For all of his power, without love he's only a coward. Pretty powerful point.

The Star Wars saga and Anakin's quest to prevent those he loves from dying is like the Wizard of Oz.

The power he seeks to prevent "death" is love.

It's not the lightside's spirtual life after death. It's not the darkside's corrpution of the spirit to keep yourself alive.

It's love.

Think of Star Wars like this...

Anakin goes on this journey to find this power. The Jedi say do as we say and your spirit becomes one with Force. The Sith say do was we say and you'll never die. This sounds good to Anakin because out of his love for those he cares about, he wants to prevent death. He sides with Palpatine because the Jedi version of eternal life requires you to die first. After siding with Palps he finds out he has been betrayed - he becomes this broken down decrepit worm of a man. This isn't what he wanted.

Along comes his son and Anakin is watching as his son is about to die. What does he do... he realizes that he CAN prevent death - by chosing to love again. He commits an act of love and turns on his master. It isn't the almighty FORCE that picks up Palpatine and drives Vader's broken body forward. It's the love for his son. Anakin finally realizes that if you love someone, you either have to let them go or you must suffer the consequences. Anakin realizes that if he loves his son, he must face his own mortality.

Thus, the hero's quest for this power is a false one. Just like the quest for the Grail. Ultimately, the power the hero seeks does not lie in the mythical; but, in the tangible love that Anakin feels for his family. He had this power of CHOICE all along. All he had to do was realize that there are things in life you can't control. If he decided to fall in love with Padme, then he needed to accept the possibility of the pain the loss of a loved one can cause.

Balance to the Force occurs when both the Jedi and the Sith are wipped out and a new Jedi is reborn that understands both the Force and love - just like Luke. Luke was willing to face his own mortality because his belief in the good of his father was so strong that he was willing to die for it. Thus the balance was restored by Anakin eliminating the Sith and dying in the process. Out with the old and in with the new.

[Jedi Master Matt]

Man, I'll never be able to look at 3PO the same way again after I see him carry off Padme, in his big, strong, golden arms.

It's like he instantly loses 50 gay points.

3P0 losing 50 gay points takes him down to what? Richard Simmons level?

[jmkb44]

The way they are evolving Anakin's character is very well done. When watching the movies as a whole sage 1-6, the buildup to each dramatic turn is really remarkable. The original trilogly is now going to be stronger for the backstory being provided. Even though there are many Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones bashers out there, they should be able to appreciate the way it sets up ROTS.

I love the fact that after the duel, Anakin must obey his master since Sidious is keeping him alive. Thinking back to 1983, and thinking Vader was going to die because the Emperor shocked him, only now to know he realized it was over because he finally killed the Emperor and now was going to die. That scene is now so mush more powerful.

As for the droids and the memory wipe, I think Obi Wan erases 3PO, but not R2 for reasons unknown. Watch A New Hope, and when Luke tells Obi about R2 after the attack by the sandpeople, Obi doesn't remember owning a droid, and then looks at R2 with a gaze like "I know who you are, but why are you here".

Off topic but at some point, I wonder, does Yoda erase Dagobah from the archives to prevent Sidious from finding him?

Thank everyone for the spoilers, but for those in the know, are there any other secrets to this movie that you are going to let us discover for ourselves this May?

[vanillazinger]

Pants are canon.

[Chainsaw_Ash]

I think after ESB/ROTJ is when PG-13 ratings came along for movies. According to one of my friends he says it was a Spilberg film that started the PG-13 era. He can't remember which one though.

Trent

Sorry, just had to clear this up - the first PG-13 movie was Red Dawn, 1984. A year after Return of the Jedi.

[Raz Zaphon]

However, one thing is really sticking out to me. I don't understand how Anakin can be so far gone and pissed to choke his wife out of existence, blaming Obi-wan for turning her against him, and then a few moments later, be controlled and calm enough to offer Obi the chance to leave "for old time's sake." That's just not sitting right with me for some reason...

He doesn't intend to choke his wife out of existence. Remember early in the film he saw Dooku use the same trick on Obi-Wan and it resulted in Obi-Wan being knocked out for a while. Unfortunately Anakin forgets his strength in the force and kills here. Which brings us to this:

The medical droids put the finishing touches on Vader, the slab rises up. You see Vader in all his glory. He stands and Palpatine is standing there. Vader's first question is about Padme/ Palpatine tells him in the style of the Emperor that 'She is dead, you killed her.' Vader rips apart the room forcing Palpatine to shield him.

[E_CHU_TA!]

And it sounds like Anakin gets the yellow eyes when he's angry.

I hope not - too Incredible Hulk.

However, one thing is really sticking out to me. I don't understand how Anakin can be so far gone and pissed to choke his wife out of existence, blaming Obi-wan for turning her against him, and then a few moments later, be controlled and calm enough to offer Obi the chance to leave "for old time's sake." That's just not sitting right with me for some reason...

Maybe, this isn’t a sincere gesture. The subtext of the comment is that Obi-wan can’t possibly defeat Anakin. So, it’s more like a taunt.

In other words, Anakin is saying: “If you want to ‘run scared’; I’ll let you.”

I love the fact that after the duel, Anakin must obey his master since Sidious is keeping him alive.

I don’t think Sidious is “keeping him alive.” Vader realizes that he can’t defeat Palpatine by himself. It’s simply Sidious’ power that is keeping Vader in check.

[Chill Mike D]

Good old Demodex lol

[Antiriad]

Yes Anakin is pretty much so arrogant by then it would seem that he assumes that hed win any encounter with his old mentor - hence his attempt at granting him a humiliating retreat.

And Im not convinced Sidious is keeping Vader alive either. He may resurrect him sure - but keep him alive? If that were so, why would he need the suit then?

[stan Marsh]

Yes Anakin is pretty much so arrogant by then it would seem that he assumes that hed win any encounter with his old mentor - hence his attempt at granting him a humiliating retreat.

And Im not convinced Sidious is keeping Vader alive either. He may resurrect him sure - but keep him alive? If that were so, why would he need the suit then?

i definitely agree he isn't keeping him alive, but he may have brought him back to life or sustained it with his sith/plageuis trick. The thing he keeps saying is I must obey my master you have no idea the power of the darkside.. To me that just means he is a shadow of his former self as far as strength and force ability, so the suited vader is no match for the emperor.

with his son at his side however

[jmkb44]

And Im not convinced Sidious is keeping Vader alive either. He may resurrect him sure - but keep him alive? If that were so, why would he need the suit then?[/quote]


A charred body with a few missing limbs wouldn't be as intimidating as the Vader suit.

But seriously, wasn't it said before that Anakin dies in the duel, thus leading to possibilty that his new life becomes linked to Sidious when he becomes reborn in the suit?

The details are probably in the dialogue of the scenes when Vader awakes on the table if there is a link at all.

[Jackie Estacado]

IMO I still think that sidious tells vader that he's keeping him alive. Even though sith in the past have been known to turn on their master, I think it's an insurance policy for sidious to know that he won't be betrayed. Then, in the next 20 years vader won't know how to over throw him until he finds out about his son surviving, in which when vader throws sidious down the "chute", it makes him look that much better of sacrificing(sp?) his life for his son (& daughter).

[Dogg Thang]

That assumes he is telling the truth to Luke. He could well have intended simply to bring Luke to the Emperor as he did in RotJ.

That or Lucas will redo the ESB dialog in his next pass.

Dogg.