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by **darthpsychotic** » January 26th 2005 12:57 am

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January 26 2005

"My failure, this was. Failed the Jedi, I did." Yoda, Revenge of the Sith.

In a glass observation dome on a medical station in the Polis Massa Belt, Yoda speaks to The Force as he has done for a long time. The Force answers him with the voice of Qui-Gon Jinn.

Qui-Gon Jinn tells Yoda not to blame himself for what happened but Yoda insists that he had been too old, too rigid, he had not noticed the changes in the galaxy...

Yoda had not let The Order change with it, he never learnt the full depth of The Force. Qui-Gon defends the old Master. He also suggests that Yoda will have a lot of time to learn the ways of the Force and - with his help - he will be able to join with The Force and yet retain his consciousness and in time, maybe even physical form.

However, this sounds to Yoda like the idea of eternal life. Qui-Gon agrees and reminds him that eternal life is exactly what the Sith are looking for, but they'll never find it...

Qui-Gon states: "...by the release of self, not the exaltation of self. It comes through compassion, not greed. Love is the answer to the darkness."

Yoda admits he underestimated Qui-Gon's potential as a Jedi Master.

So Yoda decides to learn from Qui-Gon. Bowing, he declares,

"Qui-Gon, your apprentice, I gratefully become."

by **Zidious** » January 26th 2005 1:04 am

Cool.

Qui-Gon states: "...by the release of self, not the exaltation of self. It comes through compassion, not greed. Love is the answer to the darkness."

That's good. It is sufficiently vague so that I can see Yoda learning more about this over time. It's a topic he has to meditate on. That's better than saying "The secret is love, that's all, now you know everything you need to know." More believable this way.

by **VT-16** » January 26th 2005 1:20 am

Not a cheesy as I would have thought, and Yoda becoming an apprentice again, lol, that just sounds weird. :heavymetal:

by **femme01** » January 26th 2005 1:27 am

Ternian:

He is alone in this room until Padme's Death. The Bail enters and brings him back to the surgery.

The droid announces 'systemic failure' and she dies. They then have a conference about Luke and Leia, Alderaan and Tatooine, Beru and Owen and Yoda instructs Obi-Wan in a few things.

We never see Yoda travelling to Dagobah...just him inspecting his new home.

by **Ternian** » January 26th 2005 1:28 am

As I said, the secret is blah, imo. The surrounding part is awesome.

by **Joe1138** » January 26th 2005 1:33 am

Nice. I'm glad Qui Gon is heard and not seen (unless I interpreted the post incorrectly).

by **fritistat** » January 26th 2005 1:45 am

This makes Yoda look no weaker. Recognizing and acknowledging a deficit ultimately stands to makes him stronger and smarter for future encounters....which eventually boiled down to the little green guy training Luke.

Well written, as far as I can tell.

by **Zidious** » January 26th 2005 1:45 am

As I said, the secret is blah

I interpret Qui-Gon's answer as a beginning comment that will start Yoda on his path to the truth. I don't see it as a complete summary of "the secret".

by **femme01** » January 26th 2005 1:59 am

Ternian:

Another apprentice, there is.

It looks like he's referring to Obi-Wan. Qui-Gon teaches Obi-Wan.

EDIT About Luke:

Padme names Luke in front of Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan delivers him to Beru and Owen.

It's that simple.

by **Artmaul** » January 26th 2005 2:26 am

Dude, that is sweet fucking dialogue. If the musical cues drive this scene home, there's gonna be alot of teary eyes. :heavymetal:

by **BearaceDougie** » January 26th 2005 3:10 am

OMG .. Qui-Gon Is Yodas Master

There Is Another Apprentice

/faint

by **Dogg Thang** » January 26th 2005 3:38 am

This sounds fantastic to me but it makes me wish all the more that Ep1 (and maybe even Ep2) had been a bit more confrontational with all of this. Yep, it's just my personal opinion, but Ep1 felt so held back, so reserved with regards to character interaction that I feel much of this relies on single lines and words to get across. Tensions between Qui-Gon and the Council were alluded to but what we saw was very reserved. I suppose it's back to that old film making adage - show, don't tell. Personally, I feel Ep1 told and didn't show. Like I have expressed before, I don't think Qui-Gon's actions always backed up his words. That, of course, is simply personal opinion.

Also, knowing this now, we could have seen even more of this from Dooku, Qui-Gon's apprentice. To an extent, we did - Dooku (and remember so much of what he said was truth) told Obi-Wan that Qui-Gon would have joined him. Had Qui-Gon not known Dooku's true loyalties, he may well have been right.

Anyway, point is - I think this is great and says great things about Yoda. If anything, I have more respect for Yoda now and I suppose more respect for Lucas for being brave with the character development of such a loved character. I just wish the build up in Ep1 and Ep2 had been better.

Dogg.

by **Dogg Thang** » January 26th 2005 4:04 am

No single SW character ever so dominated a film like Qui-Gon in TPM.

True, but only because no other character had anything to offer in TPM. Obi-Wan didn't start to feel like an actual person until Ep2 and I still have no clue about Padme's personality. She seems like she was written originally as 'generic character A'. I don't even think that Qui-Gon was written much better than those characters, it's just that Neeson put in such a fine performance that he shone through.

Again, just personal opinion.

Dogg.

by **Zidious** » January 26th 2005 4:35 am

One of the things that will never get explained in the films is how Ben was able to retain his identity, because it happened somewhere in between the third and fourth movies. I set up that this is a discipline that he learned from Yoda; Yoda told him how to do that. We don't ever get to see how he does it, but the idea of retaining your identity after you've passed on is something that Ben learned as a Jedi. - Extract from The Annotated Screenplays (Laurent Bouzerou), 1997

by **Dogg Thang** » January 26th 2005 4:56 am

No it doesn't. To deny one's attachments is to deny one's humanity - exactly what they did with Anakin. People gain strength from their attachments, from loving and being loved. Removing themselves from that, the Jedi lost touch with who they were as people and also distanced themselves from the common people - thinking they were above them, that they knew what was best for them.

Luke gained strength from his attachments - the team dynamic is something that so many people felt was missing in the PT and, as it turns out, this was important. Luke's "faith in his friends" was not his his downfall, it was his saviour. Anakin was denied that saviour by the Council, Yoda and even Obi-Wan.

Anakin may well have been the best Jedi ever and never turned to the Dark Side had he been allowed to acknowledge his attachments to his mother and to his missus.

Dogg.

by **Dogg Thang** » January 26th 2005 5:31 am

Well my thinking on this (not sure if I'm alone on this!) is that Anakin's attachments themselves did not cause those problems - the fact that he was denied those attachments caused larger problems than the attachments themselves.

Had Anakin not been seperated from his mother in the way that he was, had he been allowed to retain his relationship with her, he would not have been haunted by her memory, and possible demise, in the way that he was. Had he been allowed to go to her, had he been encouraged to go to her by the Jedi, even assisted by the Jedi, her fate would have been different and she may well have survived. The way I see it, Anakin's anger when she died was only partly aboutlosing his mother - it was more about the torture of knowing that he could have prevented it. Being forced to remove those attachments caused the death of his mother in a way.

Same with Padme and the intensity of their forbidden love. Had this been out in the open, had there been no taboo here, simply a case of two young people falling in love, there would never have been a problem here. It would not have gotten under Anakin's skin the way it did. But the Jedi forbid it, and it consumed him. Not because he was crazy, but because (depsite his miracle birth thingie) he was human. To deny one's feelings, one's emotions, can allow them to consume you from within as they did Anakin.

It wasn't his attachments that caused the problem - it was being denied his attachments.

Compare that to Luke. Yes, Yoda tried to discourage Luke from leaving too early. He knew Vader had set a trap for Luke and was afraid that Luke would not be ready. However, when it came down to it, he let Luke follow his own path, putting his friends, his attachments, before his training. Anakin would have had a flat out 'no' in that situation. Luke's will to save his friends gave him more strength. His attachments were a source of power, not a weakness. His friends were normal people, droids, wookiees in the same way Qui-Gon befriended that idiot Jar-Jar. He knew what it was like to be normal. PT Jedi, on the other hand, were removed from 'normal' people very yound and kept with other Jedi, seeing themselves as better - developing arrogance. Hence, 'Jedi business' in Ep2. A large part of this was caused by the removal of attachments - the one thing that would have kept them grounded.

That's just how I see it. Hope it makes at least some sense!

Dogg.

by **VT-16** » January 26th 2005 5:33 am

The attachments are not bad in and of themselves, it´s simply how you handle them. Anakin grew afraid of loosing them, Luke chose to let them go (by being willing to die) in ROTJ. The different way the two handled this dilemma, shows how one can be corrupted by his fears, while the other doesn´t. The Jedi of old got their concepts mixed up and believed all attachments would lead to cases like Anakin, while Luke will bring in a new era where the Jedi are allowed to have attachments, but keep in mind that they can never force these to last forever.

"Twilight is upon me, and soon night must fall. That is the way of things, the way of the Force."

by **Ternian** » January 26th 2005 6:05 am

Just keep in mind that it is the FORCE that talks to Yoda and Yoda hears the Force as Qui-Gon Jinn.

by **stan Marsh** » January 26th 2005 7:02 am

Dogg Thang wrote:No it doesn't. To deny one's attachments is to deny one's humanity - exactly what they did with Anakin. People gain strength from their attachments, from loving and being loved. Removing themselves from that, the Jedi lost touch with who they were as people and also distanced themselves from the common people - thinking they were above them, that they knew what was best for them.

Luke gained strength from his attachments - the team dynamic is something that so many people felt was missing in the PT and, as it turns out, this was important. Luke's "faith in his friends" was not his his downfall, it was his saviour. Anakin was denied that saviour by the Council, Yoda and even Obi-Wan.

Anakin may well have been the best Jedi ever and never turned to the Dark Side had he been allowed to acknowledge his attachments to his mother and to his missus.

Dogg.

wow dude you still don't get it. Attatchemnt is exactly what put anakin in the suit, how do you not get it. He was so attatched he would never even think to SACRAFICE himself to save a loved one. All he wanted was to do was keep them alive and at his side so he wan't alone. You guys all got caught up on love when the real thing is COMPASSION without attatchment. The ability to have compassion for VADER is what saved LUKE, he was willing to die and allow vader to keep being evil because he could not kill him, he had so much COMPASSION. OBI showed the ability to give up attatchment to his physical body in order to save the millinium and crew and therfore retained his identity after death showing compassion but giving up attatchment.

The jedi were attatched to their own importance in the galaxy and had become arrogant, very arrogant. Qui Gon was willing to been thrown out of the jedi order for his beliefs, being on the council wasn't important to him, he had no attatchment to power or importance ;only serving the will of the force.

The sith are so attatched to power through control they will never truly discover the way to retain their identity, but they do stay alive.

Lukes faith in his friends also almost killed him and solo. Vader needed to keep them alive until Luke showed up, he definitely lost his hand because he was too attatched to his friends. He could've hung with yoda for a little more and still saved them.

by **stan Marsh** » January 26th 2005 7:55 am

from luceno on the OS - this isn't hyperspace stuff so I guess it's ok to reprint

Even though Padmé and Anakin aren't physically together in Labyrinth, they are never far from each other's thoughts. This relationship is obviously a source of great strength to Anakin . . . why does Obi-Wan fear it?
The relationship is an opening to the dark side, in the sense that attachment, of any sort, is a road to fear, anger, and suffering -- in the world according to Star Wars. Padmé is both wife and surrogate mother to Anakin, and any threats to her have a devastating effect on him. What happened on Tatooine in Attack of the Clones was only the beginning.

Darth Sidious, the Sith Lord orchestrating the collapse of the Republic and the destruction of the Jedi Knights, is always a step ahead of his adversaries, even powerful Jedi like Mace Windu and Yoda. Is this because the Jedi have grown too fearful of the dark side?

The Jedi appear to have forgotten that evil can't simply be stamped out, and that their mandate is to help maintain a balance between good and evil. Complacent for too long, they have dropped the ball. They dismissed Dooku as a political idealist, failed to prevent the Separatists from creating a vast army, and allowed themselves to be beguiled by Palpatine. Worse, they have placed too much trust in the prophesized Chosen One. Sidious, meanwhile, the culmination of 1,000 years of Sith training, has been watching the Jedi closely, and gaining strength at their expense.

i think this explains the spoilers of the last few days really well and shows that attatchment is still a very bad thing for a jedi to have

by **HST** » January 26th 2005 8:28 am

we could have seen even more of this from Dooku,

I think we did. Im not saying that Qui gon would have joined dooku, as dooku said, but i think dooku is trying to acheive a slight 'independent wealth' from the force. Learning both sides, playing both sides against each other, and by ROTS i think he will learn that Sids is playing him. And by then he sees his folly and would have repented had he not gotten the scissor job from Anakin.[/quote]

by **Hartter!** » January 26th 2005 8:29 am

Holy shit! Qui-Gon finally gets the 'spect he deserves. He's still just a disembodied voice, not a visible ghost? So, this means he trains Obi-Wan as well? Awesome. Too bad he couldn't have helped out Mace and some of the others. This really adds a whole new dimension to the whole Saga. Good shit!

by **Cheesus** » January 26th 2005 8:47 am

Wow that's a great scene! Qui-Gon was what I expected a Jedi to be from watching the original series.

And I have to disagree with Dogg Thang about Episode I not showing the conflic between Qui-Gon and the Council. Off the top of my head there are three scenes that clearly demonstrate this:

Qui-Gon first brings Anakin to the Council. Mace looks at Yoda with a "*sigh* What does crazy Qui-Gon want, now?" eyeroll.
While Anakin is being tested, Obi-Wan asks Qui-Gon not to defy the Council again, alluding to problems in the past.
After Anakin's testing, Mace tells Qui-Gon that Anakin is too old. It's kind of funny that many people joke with Mace Windu's lines adding a "mothefucker" after each one, but after he says, "No he wil not be trained" is one of the most deserving places. He has a bit of a smug look to him, winning due to a technicality.

I don't find the "secret" cheesey or lame at all. It's perfect.

by **Dogg Thang** » January 26th 2005 9:21 am

You guys all got caught up on love when the real thing is COMPASSION without attatchment.

I disagree with this simply because, if that's what the "real thing" is, the Jedi already know it. That is exactly what was taught in Ep1 and Ep2 - that is what they are teaching in Jedi school. That is the philosophy of the PT Jedi - the Jedi that turned out to be wrong, the Jedi (like Yoda) who needed to unlearn what they have learned.

What you're saying by that is that the Jedi were right all along. I think it's pretty clear by now though that they weren't.

The whole point of these recent spoilers is that Yoda's perception of what it means to be a Jedi was all wrong. Much to learn has he.

Dogg.

by **vanillazinger** » January 26th 2005 10:07 am

This is cool stuff, though I wonder how much actually is/will be in the movie. Sounds like cutting room floor bait, not because it isn't terrific, but because it seems a bit tangential to the ROTS storyline. We'll see that Yoda feels bad about the fall of the Jedi without talking to disembodied voices about becoming an apprentice.

But Qui-Gon's return would be very welcome, and I really like the idea of Yoda's humility in submitting to be a learner again (which sort of gives an extra edge of cluelessness and/or irony to Vader's line in ANH). Though I do dread the inevitable chorus of "Yoda's lame!" that will rise from much of the fandom. The top Jedi have been fatally flawed throughout the PT, yet Yoda's moment of redemption will be regarded as his failure. Ah well, what can ya do?

by **Raz Zaphon** » January 26th 2005 10:39 am

Ternian wrote:Just keep in mind that it is the FORCE that talks to Yoda and Yoda hears the Force as Qui-Gon Jinn.

Then why does Yoda say "Qui-Gon, your apprentice, I gratefully become."? Does he mean he's now becomming the apprentice of the Force? That doesn't really make sense.

by **vanillazinger** » January 26th 2005 11:33 am

I'm guessing this is one of those "interpret as you like" situations. Ternian likes to anthropomorphize the Force, so he sees Qui-Gon as the Mouth of the Force. I don't like thinking of the Force as anthropomorphic, much less as a speaking character, so I'm interpreting this as St. Qui-Gon the intermediary - he's enlightened enough to have consciousness after death, so he can impart some of the wisdom he has verified.

Either way, odds are good it's not going to be explained in such explicit terms.

by **Raz Zaphon** » January 26th 2005 11:34 am

Yeah, I'm aware that being an apprentice to the Force means listening directly to the Force. But the way it's worded makes it sound like he wasn't already doing that AT ALL, whereas we clearly see him doing it during AotC at least, and can only assume he has always been an apprentice to the Force, if only partially. The fact that he specifically calls the Force "Qui-Gon" is what's really confusing me.

by **vanillazinger** » January 26th 2005 11:41 am

Cut him some slack, he did spill/clarify a whole pile of stuff in one post this morning on TFN.

Honestly, if the Force suddenly becomes a character played by Liam Neeson, I'm going to cheese (in a bad way). And I don't cheese readily in a Star Wars flick.

by **Raz Zaphon** » January 26th 2005 11:51 am

Question for Ternian - If Laim Neesons plays the Force in this movie, could we also possibly expect a cameo of Christopher Walken playing the Dark Side? Post three smileys if the answer is possibly yes.

Personally I just like the idea that the two best Jedi we get to know are Qui-Gon and Luke, as Qui-Gon opens the saga and Luke closes it.

by **Slug** » January 26th 2005 5:54 pm

Qui-Gon laying it out for Yoda! This rocks, so I guess old dogs can learn new tricks.

I think in the end we have to remember that GL considers these "Popcorn movies" as he calls them. While he seeks to satisfy the older fans like us, he knows that there are a lot of children going to these films as well. So not making the explanation complitcated & at the same time having it retain some credibility with the rest of us, using love as the answer just seems to fit right.

I mean I know that I'll sit through that to see some good Emperor lightsaber action. The kids are going to have to sit throught Anakin slaughtering the younglings, so I feel its a fair give & take.

by **Zidious** » January 26th 2005 6:15 pm

Though I suspect the latter, I'd love the former to be the case

It doesn't matter either way. The former doesn't make it better or worse than the latter. It's art.

by **VT-16** » January 26th 2005 6:37 pm

ColonelKurtz wrote:Though I suspect the latter, I'd love the former to be the case - I'd love it if Lucas really meant for Qui-Gon to return in Ep. III since the very beginning... because that would put a dirty mop in the mouths of those who yelled back then "TPM sucks, it's filled with pointless disposable characters only thrown in to have a cool fight and die, boo!"

Well, he did have it, back during the production of AOTC. Said next time would be more complicated (referring to the re-use of one of Liam Neeson´s lines taken from TPM and used in the Yoda-meditation scene in AOTC)

And I doubt he did have anything specific planned out about the secret of retaining your identity. Possibly the love-concept, but no one to become aware of it (besides Yoda and Obi-Wan).

by **HST** » January 26th 2005 6:52 pm

I have a feeling Quigon represents THE FORCE, not the lightside, not the darkside, but the force as a whole.

by **nomad** » January 26th 2005 8:31 pm

OMG thats just fucking stupid!!!!

by **Ethril** » January 26th 2005 9:40 pm

He hinted in pretty explict detail back in the annotated screenplays about how the secret would come into play, and he talked all about it and said it would be revealed in Ep III back during presss conferences for TPM.. why is there this obsession with accusing him of pulling everything out of his ass? Some story problems aren't solved until you get to them, that's the way that writing works, as anyone who's ever written longform will tell you, but Lucas has obviously had quite a bit of this planned for years now.. certain things planned since around '76.

by **offspringboy** » January 26th 2005 10:35 pm

I hope that this is true 'cos it explains the OT, which you thought you knew the back story to already, and totaly puts new light on them.
Love wll be the key then, it was Obi-Wan love of Luke Skywalker and his willingness to see him through his training which brought him back.
Yoda was strong with the force, though I cannot see where the love comes into his part? Anyone?
Anakin is the obvious one, he stated that he would never fail a loved one again at his mothers grave, though he does again in Ep III, it was his love for his son that he saved Luke from getting KFC'd by Sidious, and that's how Anakin became one with the force.

by **nomad** » January 26th 2005 11:34 pm

my comment was directed at all the people agreeing with the sarcasm

by **Sen-Set** » January 27th 2005 12:04 am

Come on now, I will guarantee you all...with all that I am...that this is not what happens. At least not exactly. Talks with Liam Neeson have revealed that his part in this episode is not one of great stature. Not only that, but after all these years, it's humorous to hear people speak of Yoda as some foolish, ancient, hard-headed goof who's been bailed out. Man, it's funny to see that you guys believe every "spoiler" that comes out. Why does this grammarically insufficient blurb convince you that it's genuine? You all treat the word of one man like it's another Testament. This is not, and I do repeat NOT, George Lucas. Every bit of information, other than pictures, should be taken with a grain of salt. I think I will leave you with that for now.

by **Raz Zaphon** » January 27th 2005 1:47 am

Welcome to MF. I can see you'll do well here. Be sure to drop by the Milita.

by **Ethril** » January 27th 2005 2:31 am

Sen-Set wrote:Come on now, I will guarantee you all...with all that I am...that this is not what happens. At least not exactly. Talks with Liam Neeson have revealed that his part in this episode is not one of great stature. Not only that, but after all these years, it's humorous to hear people speak of Yoda as some foolish, ancient, hard-headed goof who's been bailed out. Man, it's funny to see that you guys believe every "spoiler" that comes out. Why does this grammarically insufficient blurb convince you that it's genuine? You all treat the word of one man like it's another Testament. This is not, and I do repeat NOT, George Lucas. Every bit of information, other than pictures, should be taken with a grain of salt. I think I will leave you with that for now.

I was hoping my time here was off to a bang-up start, but I can't beat that

by **SkyWard** » January 29th 2005 12:29 am

Joe1138 wrote:Nice. I'm glad Qui Gon is heard and not seen (unless I interpreted the post incorrectly).

I hope he is seen as a force ghost. We heard him already in Episode II. It would be great to see him in Episode III, just as we heard Obi-Wan in Episode IV and saw him as a force ghost in Episode V.

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