[MF] Spoileriffic Report: Dooku Duel

[Spoileriffic]

http://www.millenniumfalcon.com

[femme01]

Excellent work. Thank you so much

I will love you forever, Spoileriffic.

[BobTheGoon]

Thanks a lot spileriffic. That probably took a lot of time. It's appreciated.

[Misfit]

My god. Fucking awesome Love the dialogue in this scene. Thanks for this report.

[Dogg Thang]

Wow, cool. Poor ol' Dooku. He deserved better.

Does that Anakin line "I know I shouldn't" work? Sounds like it could be overkill and hard to deliver convincingly.

Thanks for the report. Great stuff.

Dogg.

[femme01]

In a commanding tone, Palpatine says to finish him. Breaking character, Dooku turns to Palpatine with a look of suprise and says, "What?! You promised me amnesty..." This only seems to confuse Anakin. Palpatine again insists that Anakin finish the job.

Anakin doesn't come across as too bright here. He doesn't suspect that Palpatine and Dooku had set things up together?

[BrotherTheFirst]

very cool. great start.

[kremzike]

Kick ass, Spoileriffic. You fucking rock.

[Dogg Thang]

It sounds pretty obvious from the Dooku line that they were in league. It's clear he was betrayed by Palpatine even though Palpatine was supposed to be the victim here. Whether anyone knew about Sith Lords or not, it seems very obvious that they had schemed together. Anakin would have to be pretty dumb not to figure that out from Dooku's line.

Like the Order66 report, this is leading to only one conclusion - Anakin is hard of hearing.

Dogg.

[heels1785]

That's the best spoiler I've seen.

Man, you gotta love the Christopher Lee-sound to:


"Your swords please, gentlemen."

[Artmaul]

Thanks Spoilerific, love the scene.

My question is this:

What is Dooku's true objective? I would like to believe that he really wanted Obi-Wan on Geonosis to help him destroy the Sith. I mean, why lie to him about that? Or was he just trying to turn Obi-Wan against the Republic? And does he know that Palpatine is really Darth Sidious? If so, what's the whole reasoning behind the kidnapping (the ostensible reasoning, not Sidious' scheme)? Hopefully these points will be clarified in the film. It may seem obvious to some people, but when I think about the way these things have come across on screen, all I get are a bunch of conflicting motives and continuity problems.

[PTGrievous]

Great writeup Spoileriffic!
Sounds awesome!

But I don't like that Anakin says: "I know I mustn't..."
It would be better if he offed Dooku while he was in the moment.
Not giving him time to stop and think of the consequences.

Is Dooku's final line: "What?! You promised me amnesty!" ?
Poor Dooku.

[Dogg Thang]

I would agree, Artmaul. For many people the cure-all explanation is - they are evil. That in itself doesn't do it for me. Dooku must have had his own motives, his own agenda.

I think he knew full well Palpatine was Sidious, from the end of AotC but what he hoped to gain is another matter. I still cling to the hope that he was hoping for better things and by tearing down the Republic, even if it meant going along with Sidious' plans, could pave the way for something better. Sooner or later I think he would have tried to take out Sidious and that is where Obi-Wan would have come in handy.

That or, like Larry Burns, they just orchestrated a phoney kidnapping so that Palpatine's father would realise how much he loved his son.

Dogg.

[Caback]

I like how smooth Dooku is and the fact that Anakin still has some good in him (some poignant good in him) at the start of the film. It'll make him easier to cheer on at the begining. which I think is an important factor. Because even though he was still a hero in the first two, if you can afford to remind the audience of that, it wouldn't hurt.
Anyhow, the duel is definitely gonna kick major ass!
Ooo! And it's just the first one! Damn!

[femme01]

This movie report was absolutely brilliant.

I'm a happy groupie, tonight.

[Artmaul]

Thanks DT. Gets me to thinking then -- going back to what we know from the film -- Palpatine uses the kidnapping as an excuse to get Anakin on the Council and make him his personal bodyguard. Motive understood. So what does he tell Dooku? Obviously not that, because that just screams to Dooku "expendible".

Maybe it is as simple as Palpatine staging the kidnapping so as not to appear suspect in any of the bhehind the scenes machinations?

What we must assume based on the information offered in the movie, is that the CIS is being played for fools by both Dooku and Palpatine, hence the "amnesty" line. This is a deal made assuming the Republic beats the CIS, and Dooku is captured as a prisoner of war.

So then the only loose end is, what are Dooku's real motives? I guess Grievous is acting under the notion of using Palpatine's capture as the ultimate bargaining chip to win the war. Certainly Palpatine had confidence he would be rescued, but wouldn't Dooku stop and quesiton how Palpatine expected to get out of CIS custody without putting either one of them in danger? It doesn't make sense for them to be working together on this.

[Benovite]

I like how Anakin jokes with Obi-Wan about taking on Dooku together this time as opposed to the way he did it in AOTC. I also like the irony of using that dialogue in the beginning of the movie because by the end they're fighting each other. It's a clear and stark contrast.

[VT-16]

Whether anyone knew about Sith Lords or not, it seems very obvious that they had schemed together.

No, unless you´re part of the movie-audience, it´not "obvious" at all. Noone has any reason to believe Dooku is in league with Palpatine.

Anakin would have to be pretty dumb not to figure that out from Dooku's line

He could easily believe it was something Palpatine said while captive ("Let me go and I´ll grant you amnesty").

[Dogg Thang]

Well that would only work if he agreed to let Palpatine go. As he was fighting two Jedi to keep him it's quite a leap to think that.

Dogg.

[elevendayempire]

One teensy-weensy little issue I have with this - when Luke had his hand lopped off, he was (understandably) screaming and inarticulate - and yet Dooku, with both hands sliced off, who must be in an incredible amount of pain, is able to say "What? You promised me amnesty!" with what seems to be relative compsure. This had better be well-directed to appear convincing...

SG

[VT-16]

Well that would only work if he agreed to let Palpatine go. As he was fighting two Jedi to keep him it's quite a leap to think that.

Dogg.

No it isn´t, it´s classic villain-behaviour:

"Please let me go, I´ll grant you amnesty!"

"No."

*fights Anakin*

*looses*

"Kill him!"

*desperate*

"Wait, didn´t you promise me amnesty!?"


See? I´ve seen plenty of movies with similar situations, it´s classic "cowardly villain"-behaviour.

[Dogg Thang]

Hmmm...you seem to be filling in a few gaps there and changing the lines to fit that leap you're making. That's not how it plays out according to Spoileriffic's report. It is very clear from Dooku's line that it had played out exactly accoding to plan up until the point he was beaten and Palpatine approved his death. Classic villain behaviour? So you're putting Dooku on the same level as Dick Dastardly here?

If you're going to try to grab to something desperately to make out that Anakin isn't stupid, I would favour my 'hard of hearing' theory.

Dooku - "You promised me amnesty"

Anakin - "What did he say?"

Palpatine - "Quiet you"

It's easier to believe than your leap in my opinion.

Dogg.

[elevendayempire]

It's all in the delivery. Dooku's "surprised" - I just hope he has the sense not to play it like a chap at a tea party who's discovered that the lemon sponge has run out...

SG

[VT-16]

Hmmm...you seem to be filling in a few gaps there and changing the lines to fit that leap you're making. That's not how it plays out according to Spoileriffic's report.

Your leap makes less sense.

"Oh noes, the arch-villain possibly made a deal with my good buddy Palpatine. Should I pay any attention to it? Why, yes, I should suddenly stop and think this through. Maybe Palpatine is a Sith? Oh, yes, that immidiately springs to mind from one sentence coming from a desperate man! I think I´ll take Dooku seriously just like master Obi-Wan did three years ago!"

[Raz Zaphon]

"You promised me amnesty" is far different that "but Sidious were both Siths adn your my master and we planned this whole thing together why are you doing this to me?"

From Anakin's perspective, alot of explinations can be derived from Dooku saying this. Palpatine could have promised him amnesty out of fear before he and Obi-Wan arrived. Otherwise, Dooku could be derranged on account of the fact that he just had his hands cut off. Otherwise, Palpatine, the Chancellor and supposed enemy of Dooku, is really his master and together they set this entire war up. If you were Anakin, which conclusion would you jump to first?

Personally, I'd go with Derranged Dooku before anything else.

Gets me to thinking then -- going back to what we know from the film -- Palpatine uses the kidnapping as an excuse to get Anakin on the Council and make him his personal bodyguard.

Yes, but mainly (and as far as Dooku knows) he does this to keep the Senate in a state of fear and make them realise just how dangerous the separtists are, hence the further changes he makes in the way the Senate is run strait after the kidnapping. Anakin becomming his personal bodyguard was probably a direct result of him winning the duel. These two events happen at roughly the same point don't they? So basically Palpatine arranged the kidnapping for two reasons, but Dooku could only know about one of those reasons.

[Dogg Thang]

"You promised me amnesty" is a clear indication that Dooku was betrayed by Palpatine. This has nothing to do with Sith Lords or whatever you seem to be extracting from it that you think is so unbelievable. It says very clearly that Palpatine had made a promise to Dooku that was now being broken with Dooku's death. Yes that could be a promise Palpatine made out of fear but, like I have already said, it only works if Dooku gives Palpatine back. In the stated scenario it makes no sense. None whatsoever.

As far as not believing him because Obi-Wan didn't believe him three years ago, again this is a leap. Dooku is a defeated, dying man. He may well lie to get him out of it but lying for Anakin's benefit would do him no good. Again, makes no sense.

Which conclusion would I jump to first? That Dooku and Palpatine had some sort of scheme going. Simple as that.

It's more likely that Anakin just isn't all that smart. It's no big deal. Nobody said that the Chosen One would be a genius and his son was hardly a rocket scientist now was he? Alternatively, Anakin did pick up on it but let it go - to tackle Palpatine about it afterwards. After all, this is the beginning of his downward spiral.


I find it amazing sometimes the leaps in logic some people go to to fit SW to the view they had in their own head and then add a as if their twisted logic is obvious. It is what it is.

Dogg.

[SteveFett]

best spoiler report EVER !!!

Palpatine is soooo cold - KILL HIM !! Then afterwards when he wants Anakin to leave Obi-Wan behind !! BRILLIANT.

[nomad]

i agree with you PTGrievous...

a weak line to end dooku and anikans hesitation, like a great stutter at the end of a fluid conversation... shame.

and yeah the 'Your swords please, gentlemen.' line is very suave.

[Cheesus]

While I liked Labrynth of Evil a lot (and loved how it leads directly into the movie), I don't believe in using 3rd party sources to explain the movie.

Dooku's motivations are explained in the movies. In Episode I we learn there can only be two Sith, a master and an apprentice. In Episode II, V, and VI, we learn the apprentices want their own apprentice to continue the cycle because they always aim to eliminate the master.

And 2nded or 3rded or whatever; GREAT SPOILER! Wow, I can't wait!

[SI]

I'm sick to death of commenting how fucking awesome this movie will be.

[Raz Zaphon]

I find it amazing sometimes the leaps in logic some people go to to fit SW to the view they had in their own head and then add a as if their twisted logic is obvious. It is what it is.

[BearaceDougie]

MY GOD

'Riffic you've done well, i hope another report like this is soon... God i cant wait

You Da Man!

[son of stanley]

I sort of agree with fuckface up there^......Dooku's aware that the senate is under the control of a Sith Lord....perhaps the 'amnesty' talk came from Palps as Palps.....not Palps as Sidious.

Wasn't there a set diary concerning 'what a certain character knows?' andif it was or wasn't conflicting? Maybe someone in the know can clairfy everyone's motives here....if in fact the film calirfies it at all.

[Indiana]

Me too.

[rhonderoo]

Awesome report! This is making my fun-filled Dayof Excel spreadsheets bearable. *smooches Spoileriffic*


I love the "take him together" part also.

[Dogg Thang]

Spreadsheets? You work for a porn mag?

Dogg.

[rhonderoo]

Spreadsheets? You work for a porn mag?

Dogg.

[Jonesy]

Anakin hits down Dooku's arms with his lightsaber hilt and pulls Dooku's saber out of his hands in the moment of confusion. Simultaneously he slices his blade through both of Dooku's wrists

Is anyone else having trouble visualizing this?

(I'm new the boards, so my apologies if I messed this post up somehow.)

[Bandersnatch]

Is anyone else having trouble visualizing this?

Yeah, especially since I haven't seen the movie yet...

Just teasing you... Welcome aboard.

I'm thinking this will be a very fast move that is probably very hard to describe in print. One of those pieces of visual poetry that Lucas is so great at.

[buzzfunk]

Wow....i have to say, that reads really impressive.

[CoGro]

I'm curious to hear what riffic thinks of the scene as a whole...

Does he like it? Does it work? How's the acting, dialogue, action...etc.

[Jonesy]

Another thought:

At this point in the movie, do the Jedi think Dooku is the leader of the Sith, or do they think he has a master? Because if they think that Dooku is the chief enemy they have, isn't this a major victory for them?

I suppose I'm confused because it's obvious to all of us that Sidious is out there, but to the Jedi, it may seem like they've just scored a knock-out blow.

Thoughts?

[Bandersnatch]

Well, the Jedi do know about Sidious at the end of AOTC, so I don't think they'd think that Dooku is the leader of the Sith. They probably want to arrest him and take him downtown for questioning, as it were, and find out who the "phantom menace" really is. Unfortunately for Dooku and the Jedi, Anakin lops off Dooku's corrupt little head...

[CoGro]

They know about Sidious.

and if you take LoE as cannon, they know Sidious is on Coruscant and in the Senate circle. The Jedi are literally inches away from discovering Sidious in LoE if not for Coruscant being invaded and Mace/Shaak Ti having to defend the capital.

[Ramstrong]

Hot Damn! That makes me feel funny inside

Spoilerific Rocks!

[Dogg Thang]

Well I don't know about taking that book as canon but they know that it is bigger than Dooku at the end of AotC so it would have made sense to take him in, put him in the box and let Pembleton work his magic but Anakin scuppered that one.

But then that's what I thought about Jango Fett in AotC and Mace lopped his head off with no qualms. I mean, they knew he was the source of the clone army that was being used for the Republic and yet not commisioned by the Jedi as claimed and yet he's working for Dooku - the other side. His mere presence should have set off serious alarm bells and taking him in would have been much more beneficial than killing him. Very obvious that there was something fishy going on.

Dogg.

[vanillazinger]

Sweet. I like how it plays out. Good characterizations of Anakin, Dooku and Palpatine. Palps must wince when Anakin refuses to leave Obi-Wan. So close and yet so far.

So they meet R2 & General Grievous after this, correct?

As far as motives, I don't get what's difficult to understand. This report pretty much seals the deal:

- Palps and Dooku set up the civil war as a means to consolidate power and destroy those who might oppose them.

- Palps promised Dooku amnesty in return for his antagonist role in creating the Empire. Dooku's end game is a big piece of the puzzle we've had to assume till now.

- Palps and Dooku arranged the attack on Coruscant and the kidnapping to give impetus for Palp's next power grab. As a direct result he takes personal control of the military and shames the Jedi. It's all about putting Palpatine on the throne, first and foremost. Anakin is a side bet here.

- As for the particulars of the kidnapping & rescue, after this report it's evident that they don't matter. Palpatine's thinking is clear: With his orchestration, the attack & kidnapping will be successful. Somehow he'll get free - how it happens doesn't especially matter, though they've apparently allowed Anakin and Obi-Wan to reach him unscathed - and his play in the Senate is an assured success. He's got Dooku securely in hand with the promise of power & amnesty. He's got nothing to fear from Grievous, who doesn't know the larger plot (as we recently learned) but takes orders from Dooku and the mysterious Darth Sidious. The kidnapping makes sense, finally.

- Dooku's thinking is also clear: Facilitate the creation of the Empire with the knowledge that he'll get amnesty. After that, no doubt he'll consider doing in Palpatine and taking the whole ball of wax. Maybe he's even eyeing Anakin for his own apprentice, given the "But you don't use it" line. But that's all in the future. Right now, he simply prosecutes the war with the knowledge that if & when he's caught, he'll walk.

- With Anakin ready to turn, Palpatine has no intention of keeping Dooku around to collect his reward. Again, the particulars don't matter. Sooner or later Palpatine will set up Dooku's demise. Preferably by Anakin's hand, but that's not at all the main thrust of the kidnapping plot.

- Anakin's thinking is also sound. As far as he knows, Palpatine is blameless. He's been kidnapped and needs rescuing. Anakin fights through lots of enemies and does the job. The above posters are correct about Anakin's perception of Palpatine & Dooku. Dooku's line says nothing more than it says - Palpatine promised Dooku amnesty. For a man kidnapped by his mortal enemies, that's not the slightest bit damning. Nor is Palpatine's response, frankly.

- The exchange does add weight, though, to the scene in which Anakin finally learns the truth about Palps. Anakin puts all the pieces together and is ready to do the old man in. But as always Palps is one step ahead.

[elevendayempire]

It's clever that Anakin refuses to leave Obi-Wan. There's still good in him at that point, and it's the action that ultimately leads to Palpatine's undoing. If Obi-Wan hadn't survived there, then he wouldn't have handed Anakin's ass to him on a plate on Mustafar, and Sidious would've had the super-powered Sith apprentice he needed to rule the galaxy with an iron fist. If not for that one act of compassion, the GFFA would be a very different place...

SG

[kerouac777]

Palpatine is pretty confident in his ability to manipulate Annie at this point, I guess. He allows Annie to be in a situation where he can hear, by Dooku, a piece of the bigger plan AND he's willing to straight up say, "Leave that mofo here," when he's speaking of Annie's 'father-figure.'

I hope it's not too much of a stretch for the audience that Palps would be so headstrong at this point.

[robbie_20002002]

CoGro wrote:

I'm curious to hear what riffic thinks of the scene as a whole...

Does he like it? Does it work? How's the acting, dialogue, action...etc.

I second that. I really don't think the immunity part is difficult to explain. Palpatine could (for example) inform Anakin, that he offerred it to Dooku in return for no hostilities (ie bombings) against the innocent people of Coruscant. This would reduce any potential casualties from the capture of himself, if of course, Dooku was ever caught. As far as i know the planet is relatively unscathed from the Seperatist attack. Palpatine is a politician, politicians have a habit of cutting ambigous, shady deals, but it doesn't make them all Sith Lords.