Anakin's reasons for turning

[ki adi moonshine]

I was talking via PM with a guy over at TF.n who was basically talking as if he has seen pieces or the entire movie itself. I was talking about Anakin's turn, and he had some interesting things to say....I was wondering if Ternian could confirm these things or prove them wrong.

Anakin makes a very obvious turn at one specific point in the movie, but he progessively turns more and more sinister.

Those closest to him are in denial that Anakin is behind all the mayhem, until they witness specific acts. But even then, they try to turn him back... but by then it is too late.

Anakin thinks he is right in his every move. He does not doubt. He feels betrayed by those closest to him.

Anakin never really embraces the dark side in the literal sense of the word. He endulges in fear, anger and hate and he becomes increasingly powerful. He doesn't turn for the sake of the dark side, but because of something he believes the dark side can provide him that he cannot achieve any other way.

Anakin is completely lost. He did not choose evil for the sake of evil. he does what he does to get access to something he needs, but it is all selfish and not motivated by anything good. Anakin is evil in the movie simply because of the things he does.

Yes he does try to prevent Padme from dying, but not so much out of compassion as out of sheer greed. Padme has something Anakin needs... an heir.

Anakin's motivations stem from his belief that his purpose as Chosen One is to rule the galaxy. He is arrogant and believes he can overthrow the Jedi and destroy the sith all while creating a galactic dynasty. But he uses the dark side of the Force to meet this end and it consumes him.

Anakin sees his abilities have far surpassed those of the Jedi. He seeks a position of authority but is constantly held back by the council who feel danger surrounding Anakin's fate. Anakin has no faith in the Jedi's ability to protect the corrupted Republic. He wants to lead the galaxy in a new direction. He will sieze whatever power he can to destroy those who stand in his way... be they Jedi or be they Sith.

This all has to do with the prophecy and what anakin believes he is destined to achieve as the Chosen One. If you are hinting that Anakin makes the choices he does for his love of Padme, it's not quite that at all. Anakin has a startling vision that he interprets as his destiny... it becomes much more than a fight for love as it does the quest for power. Remember, Anakin believes he is right and that no one but him can change the course of the galaxy.

Anakin believes that his visions and dreams are warnings that he is to act on them like his dreams of his mother, something he ignored until too late. He believes the Force is showing him something he must do as Chosen One... something he must stop. In the end, what he is seeing is the acts he himself committed. It's like a parodox. He can never control what he sees in his dreams.

Anakin has greater aspirations than to live happily ever after with Padme. He wants to reign. He wants to be king. He thinks that is his destiny. He has no confidence in the current government or the Jedi's abilities. His political views are in perfect contrast to Padme's, so he doesn't expect her to follow him willingly.

The first few are basically common knowledge, but the end is styffling...holy shit. Tern, is this stuff true!?

[Zeal]

I don't care what anyone says, this is totally accurate.

[Zidious]

Is this from a discussion with JediPloKoon at TF.N?

[Luukeskywalker]

yes it is.

[Zidious]

That user has posted a bunch of vague comments and won't answer questions. HLAS PM'd him, then locked the main thread when he wasn't satisfied.

[The3lanK]

While I find most of this very interesitng, espeically on how it effects the way we look at vadar in the OT, I am a bit doubtful about parts.

When exactly did anikan become so overconfident that he feels he can rule the galaxy?

Surely by ESB he is ready, but still only with an aprentice as worthy as his son.... but back in AOTC, when asked if he should be the one making the descions, he quickly replies not me, but someone wise.

Surely through AOTC and into ROTS Anikan will look up to and respect Palps. Surely he must feel that Palps is the one to rule the galaxy, at least until a certain point.

Once he realizes palps is Sith he must decide that it is his job as Chosen one to take out Palps, and everyone else, but not until he has first learned the secrets... so he does Palps biddings, since they are sorta in line with his own desires, but by this time Anikan is basically gone, but growing more and more power hungry.

However, I really Dont think that we we are going to see an Anikan who is power hungry and Phychotically trying to Rule the galaxy, at least not until maybe half way through :0)

As far as him only caring about padme for his heir, Ill buy that, at least twords the end of the flick, but in the begining, it has to partially be about saving her.

[Chilly]

anakin turns to the darkside because he cant get his way :P

much like a child who cant have any more cookies and ice cream has a tantrum

the differnce is a child has no lightsaber and force powers

if children did.. jeez.. sith all over supermarkets with there mothers

[CoGro]

I was talking via PM with a guy over at TF.n

You lost me right there.

[Jedi Master Matt]

He turns because Shaq was taking all the shots and you know Kobe wants the ball.

btw - doesn't anyone read what Lucas has said about Anakin's turn? He does it for noble Faustian reasons. He dips his toe into evil because he see it as a way to prevent the pain of loss. He sells his soul for someone he loves to prevent from having to deal with loss ever again. After he gets a taste of this power, he then starts thinking bigger. Why not seize power for himself and right all the wrongs in the universe? It isn't just for the power, he does believe that it is for the best intentions. Only after he turns does he begin to think "why shouldn't I rule". But this isn't just selfish, remember he does tell Padme he wants her by his side saving the universe.

If what you're saying is true, then how would this be explained in context of the film? This is all internal monolouge bs. He couldn't tell Padme about this "Oh, after you give birth - I'm through with you.". He couldn't tell Palpatine about this "Oh, after you tell me your secrets, I plan on killing you and I hate my wife and plan on replacing you with my heir.". After all, he speaks with Yoda first about preventing loss before he brings up the subject to Palpatine. He does it out of love.

If he didn't love her and didn't want her to live, even if it was do just give birth - why does he choke her? It's because he doesn't want to lose her to someone else. Again, the darkside is a means to an end.

Besides the whole message of his fall is growing up and accepting the consequences of your emotions. Anakin lets love into his heart and he doesn't understand if you choose to love, you have to deal with loss and pain.

*this is what you get by PMing people at TFN. Oh well, at least it wasn't some theory about how Anakin was secretly wanting to have Palpatine's clone baby.

[SVTCobra]

tl;dr

[BearaceDougie]

I was talking via PM with a guy over at TF.n

You lost me right there.

dont mention around Cogro, he'll loose interest immediatly

known fact

[ki adi moonshine]

Anakin has greater aspirations than to live happily ever after with Padme. He wants to reign. He wants to be king. He thinks that is his destiny. He has no confidence in the current government or the Jedi's abilities. His political views are in perfect contrast to Padme's, so he doesn't expect her to follow him willingly.

Anakin and Padme do discuss their family. Though Padme has a very different view while Aanakin quietly sees an entirely different future.

This move flows brilliantly into the next one. The musical cues and small elements tie things together nicely. I'm sure some fans are expecting every little thing to have a backstory, but enough of the primary plot will flow directly into New Hope.

I've not heard the entire score, but the pieces I have heard are very cool. There are musical bridges all over the place and a series of music straight out of the next movie. Williams pulled out all the stops on this one. Now let's hope the final cut maintains his full score and that they don't substitute older music from the other films.

Anakin forces himself into a position politically that concerns the Jedi and Obi-Wan begins to fear for Anakin. Anakin begins to display bitterness toward Obi-Wan and the council. But there are some nice Han/Luke-style moments between the two of them in the first 30-40 minutes of the film.

The acting is far better this time around. Well, let me just say that George gave the actors, in particular Hayden, more room to evolve the character. But he had to merge his Episode 2 performance into the Episode 4 Darth Vader performance and I think he did an outstanding job. He is Darth Vader.

Anakin has the opportunity to destroy Sidious more than once in this film. Anakin has a moment where he can strike down a "defenseless" Palpatine.

The Liam Neeson thing is very complicated. It went back and forth about how they were going to accomplish what the story required without visualizing Qui-Gon. This is some dicy territory actually because it may very well have changed at this point how they realized this aspect in the film - whether we hear Qui-Gon or just know from Yoda he has spoken with Qui-Gon is left to be seen. But Qui-Gon is not forgotten and is mentioned. This could be, for some fans, the biggest revelation in Star Wars.

I'll keep my background off the boards if you don't mind.

Yes, this is all a very delicate part of the script. I see that some of this information has leaked. There may or may not be a revelation like this in the final cut. Much of what Yoda learns from Qui-Gon may be heard as second-hand information Yoda conveys directly to Obi-Wan. Again, the Liam Neeson thing is complicated. They're trying to pull something off they didn't think they were going to have to do.

Well, Mace doesn't actually defeat Palpatine. Palpatine is put into an inferior position as the result of a combination of things, but he quickly regains control. Yoda isn't defeated in the purest form of the term either. What happens to Yoda is more circumstantial than anything else. There are obstacles and a lot more going on between Yoda and Sidious than just a straight fight. Yoda does deliver some nice moves, but he gets caught in an unfortunate position - just bad timing... he's in the wrong place at the wrong moment.

So in the end, the fights are resolved more through special circumstances and other variables not specific to who is the strongest in the Force. What I mean is, under different circumstances, the fights could have easily gone the other way... it's just bad luck all around for the jedi in this case.

There are two birth scenes that are executed at the same time. The twins and classic Darth Vader are born at the same time, intercut. John Williams particularly shines at this moment.

Darth Vader's rage is a combination of his pain and suffering, the loss of Padme, and the knowledge that he was lied to by Sidious... he can never achieve what he hoped would be his destiny. We feel both anger and sympathy for Anakin. Angry at what he has done, and sympathy because he really was a lost soul.

When JW's score is overlayed to some of the final scenes, I guarantee there will be people choked up. I found watching Ewan's performance at the end heartbreaking. His reaction to the loss of Anakin is quite emotional.

Anakin doesn't know Obi-Wan is alive and is quite shocked to see him. So is Padme. Obi-Wan actually tries to reason with Anakin and bring him back, but Anakin feels betrayed to the point of lashing out at Padme. There is a very heated argument in the conference room that leads to the duel. Anakin shows no signs of returning with Obi-Wan and is committed to destroying him. Obi-Wan is very emotional in his argument with Anakin. Ewan breaks your heart with his performance... it's tragic Obi-Wan stuff that makes you really feel bad when you see him again in Episode 4 talk about Anakin.

Anakin does offer Obi-Wan the chance to leave... it's much more menacing the way he delivers it, more like a threat. Obi-Wan cannot let Anakin escape, his intentions are to destroy him, but he is also conflicted... until things get heated.

There is a ROTJ-style moment where both Mace and Sidious are calling to Anakin for help. This is when Anakin makes the choice he does.

Well, there are many things going on... it's a traveling duel with many obstacles. So it is segmented by different environments and sets. If you mean is it edited tobe intercut with other scenes, I believe it is intercut with Yoda's battle with Sidious, but then it turns back to Anakin and Obi.

There are interruptions and arguing throughout the duel. They cannot control their environment and have to battle through obstacles, but the duel is segmented visually like ESB yes... the environment changes dramatically.

Well, that is all very circumstantial and requires more of a visual, shot by shot explanation that I can't offer here. Obi-Wan does not win by luck if that is what you mean.

I almost feel compelled to believe him because he has said so much, but I don't think Anakin will turn because he wants to rule the galaxy from the beginning; it has to transform into this, or evolve as he becomes more and more entrenched by the Dark Side.

At the end, he was very sketchy when I asked about the "Duel" and how Anakin sustains his injuries. Dodged some things and didn't answer them as well.

[ki adi moonshine]

I wouldn't be surprised if he did.

It's called copy and paste.

[ki adi moonshine]

Man, just to clear things up, I'm not going out "shouting to the world"; I really want Tern to prove him wrong because I think he's full of shit. He says to have seen the movie WITH parts of the score...is that even possible?

Spoileriffic saw a rough cut, maybe he can prove/disprove it.

Seriously, this guy must be a pathological liar to say so much and to not have even seen the fucking movie. Are people really just so desperate for attention?

[ki adi moonshine]

How is about proving or dissproving?

Most of that stuff has already been leaked/speculated on/confirmed or hinted at anyway. And anything else is common sense.

I doubt most of that will be talked about in the movie. It may just be stuff that Anakin is obviously thinking to drive him to do the things he's doing.


I dunno.

FUCK that mess of a website anyway.

Why an 'insider' would want to go there is beyond me...

Maybe its because TFN comes top of google when you search for starwars fansites. I dunno.

Problem is is that a lot of the things he said are flat out wrong.

IT's interesting because he used to post there and miraculously came back after 4 1/2 years from his last post...like wtf. Then he goes in threads acting like he has the inside scoop and says he does not know what we know and what has been leaked after rehashing things we have heard.

I don't buy it.

[Ethril]

Is it me, or is all his stuff vauger versions of things we already knew? And 90% of it is just Anakin's psychology.. and essentially whatever is in the film, it could be correct or it could not.. it's a whole lot of analysis..