MF TERNIAN REPORT: The Duel • Part II

[Ternian]

http://www.millenniumfalcon.com

[royalguard96]

If that doesn't get ROTS a PG-13, nothing will.

Disturbing, but in a good way...

[JRA81984]

So now we know the context of "You were the Chosen one!" from the trailer. That makes it all the more powerful. What an amazing scene this will be to see on the big screen. Anakin just doesnt get a break here.... first legs, then his arm.... then bursts into flames?? thats gotta hurt lol

[Zidious]

Now I know why all the marketing has Vader surrounded by flames.

Above in the sky, Obi sees the Theta class shuttle entering the atmosphere.

I've been expecting that. Either Obi-Wan gets chased (maybe a TIE chase!), or all of the Emperor's ships land before Obi-Wan takes off and they don't see him.

[Wire]

Cool, top notch stuff again. Dismembered then burnt, that's got to hurt.

[grumblegrumble]

Possible plot hole: How is Palpatine NOT going to notice a ship nearby taking off? I'm assuming that shuttle has sensors and proximity shit (goddamn I'm such a fuckin sheep) so why wouldn't he send some of those prototype TIES after it?

...or maybe he does?

Isn't Padme on Mustafar as well? Maybe his ship gets destroyed, and the Tantive has to come to the rescue?

[PTGrievous]

bursting into flames
"I hate you"


Right til the end...

[BrotherTheFirst]

nice. darker and darker we go.

[Vinceyoung]

He didn't want to go against the Jedi code and commit murder, but he went out there with the purpose of assassinating Anakin to begin with?

Here's something that's been bugging me...

The only two Sith are Sidious and Vader. On top of that, Vader is on his own. Yoda and Obi-Wan, aside from being the only two Jedi left. They are skilled veterans, and recognized as masters. By all accounts, both very powerful...

So why split up? Both of them should have gone in and taken out Palpatine, and then they go do the same to Vader. Obviously, Obi-Wan has little problem dispatching Vader. Yoda doesn't fare quite as well against Sidious, but it's not like he was just totally overmatched. If Obi-wan and Yoda had worked together, they could have probably done the job.

[Zidious]

how is the movie going to make it explicit that obi-wan's just "following the code"

I don't think it will be explicit in the movie.

and the Tantive has to come to the rescue?

The teaser shows Padme's ship flying away from Mustafar.

[Vrolokus]

I dunno; on film, it will look more like Obi-Wan is fleeing Palpatine.

Besides, how close is he to Anakin? How could he really finish him off?

[Devil Dodo]

I think it'll all come off alright in the film in context...

[PTGrievous]

So why split up? Both of them should have gone in and taken out Palpatine, and then they go do the same to Vader. Obviously, Obi-Wan has little problem dispatching Vader. Yoda doesn't fare quite as well against Sidious, but it's not like he was just totally overmatched. If Obi-wan and Yoda had worked together, they could have probably done the job.

Why not just ride the eagles to Mt Doom and drop the ring in...

It's a bad idea is why.

[Dogg Thang]

Yeah, this is excellent, but I also find that Jedi code thing a bit baffling. I mean, Mace was going to kill Palpatine while he was on his knees begging for mercy. How can killing Anakin (who was clearly going to die anyway) go against the Jedi code?

Odd...

Dogg.

[Chilly]

brought a tear to my eye just reading it to be honest.

[Dogg Thang]

Mr.Food, your observation is spot on. Everything does seem to fit with an entire change of attitude about severing one's attachments.

And yet when Mace goes to kill him, Palpatine is unarmed and on his knees surrendering. If a cop killed someone in that situation, he would be done for murder. It's not a clean shoot.

But that is missing the point. Clean kill or not, there seems to be an inconsistency here (that I doubt will be in the film as I suspect it is due to the book's explanation of Obi-Wan's motivations). Either it is okay for a Jedi to kill someone in this situation ir its not. Mace clearly thought it was okay. If he was right then Obi-Wan could have killed Anakin without worrying about going against the Jedi code.

Dogg.

[Kyyle K]

Harsh, and brutal, I like it.


But part of me wonders: couldn't Obi Wan justify killing Vader by simply doing his job to wipe out evil? At this point, it would seem that Anakin is beyond all redemption, why then wouldn't Obi Wan just kill him?

I'm hoping that Obi Wan mentions that he feels Anakin can still be redeemed and that Anakin/Vader makes a conscious choice not to accept the offer of redemption. On the other hand, Obi Wan could easily justify killing Vader by saying that it's no different than what he did to Maul.

Regardless, very cool spoilers and I'd love to see more about this scene.

[VT-16]

So now we know the context of "You were the Chosen one!" from the trailer

If you notice in the trailer, he´s looking down when he says it. Down on a scorched sandbank, if this is the case...

And I think the "murder"-note applies to not killing someone who is defenseless. Vader is basically legless, lacking an arm and trying to stave off lava, killing him then could be considered an aggressive act. Like if Luke had killed his father in ROTJ when he cut of his sabre-hand and he was lying on the ground, with his hand stretched out in a plea for mercy. Luke resisted then, Obi-Wan resists it now.

And Vader said in ROTJ that "Obi-Wan once thought as you do" to Luke, when he suggested that Vader come with him, so it seems he does try to make him reconsider.

Obi Wan could easily justify killing Vader by saying that it's no different than what he did to Maul.

Unless his ties to Anakin are too strong and he shows mercy by letting him live. Maul was just a face-less villain, no ties and no remorse afterwards. With Vader it´s different. Besides, with or without Vader, Palpatine is still in control and the galaxy is still fucked. Not much of that would change if Vader died. Maybe Obi-Wan also thinks Vader would have a twisted positive effect on the fascist Empire, even if he is a Sith now? His vision for the galaxy still shines through even after the turn, doesn´t it?

Mace clearly thought it was okay. If he was right then Obi-Wan could have killed Anakin without worrying about going against the Jedi code.

Mace is dead. Obi-Wan´s alive and thinking of the future. That´s the difference. :P

[Disco1999]

Perhaps Obi Wan doesn't kill him for simple logistic reasons - he's slipped down the side and obi-wan can't reach him?

[Afternoon]

@Dogg Thang: How could Mace possibly arrest Sidious?`Put handcuffs on or what? This guy just finished three Jedi within seconds. The slightest lack of concentration could give him the upperhand again, not to mention his political powers. It was clearly impossible to arrest him, the Jedi would have the whole republic against them, Palpatine would have been freed and the Jedi Purge would have began much earlier. Btw you also cannot forget that Sidious is the one that imbalances the force. He had to die and it's bad that Mace went into a discussion with Anakin instead of finishing Sidious.

Also, as far as I know, the defeat of Sidious may be not faked, but his begging and kneeling is simply to gain sympathy from Anakin and bring him on his side.

[VT-16]

The others were PG, and AOTC stretched the boundary to PG-13. Maybe ROTS will stretch the boundary to R?

[malkieD2]

I dunno, some of this isn't sitting well with me - it just doesn't sound right. There's a clip in the trailer of anakin/vader hanging from ledge over what looks like lava, but he's got both his hands (which goes against the Part I spoiler).

I can't see Obi-wan just leaving anakin after all that's happened, it's a tad heartless.

I dunno, maybe by that point we'll be happy to see the whining bastard burn.

[BearaceDougie]

I Dont Like the "I Hate You" thing much.. dont ask why, im not sure

[Swedish Chef]

I agree with the logistical reason. Obi-Wan surely would have tried to spare Anakin unless the slip and sliding was that bad. Though it would be a pretty big dramatic gamble for GL to have Obi-Wan intentionally walk away, as if to point out that Obi-Wan really had enough of Anakin's shenanigans.

Either way, looks to be a tense and rewarding scene, especially if you like your sith well done and not medium rare.

[Salacious Crumb]

Possible plot hole: How is Palpatine NOT going to notice a ship nearby taking off? I'm assuming that shuttle has sensors and proximity shit (goddamn I'm such a fuckin sheep) so why wouldn't he send some of those prototype TIES after it?

...or maybe he does?

I too have pondered this one.

-We've seen footage of the Naboo cruiser speed out of Mustafar (possibly pursued??)

-We are told that Palps informs Vader he killed Padme.

So Palps knows some of what happens before the duel - and its outcome. But if he finds out about Padme's death it is either through a very public Naboo funeral, or through intuition or spies on Mustafar.

So in the former scenario who's around to tell him that Anakin choked her?

My view is that HE KNOWS who is there when he arrives on Mustafar, and if a pregnant Padme is steaming off with Obi-Wan they will be chased (until they can hyperdrive out) because she's carrying Anakin's child...

I just find the order of events here, from what we know, a little disjointed.

Back to the the topic of this thread. Could Obi-Wan leave Anakin, not to die, but in the resigned knowledge he will be picked up by the shuttle he's just seen in the sky?

[Dogg Thang]

The 'I hate you' really depends on how it is delivered. If it's a screaming 'I HATE YOU!!!!' it might sound like a teenager throwing a tantrum. But if it's under his breath, like a last curse before death, then it might be cool. They're just possibilities. I suppose we won't know until we hear it but I think it could be okay.

Dogg.

[elevendayempire]

"It's all Obi-Wan's fault! He stole my jelly!"

Seriously, though, I'll tell you what would've been nice to see - Obi-Wan tries to save Anakin, reaching out and grabbing his hand. Unfortunately, the hand being made of metal, it's hot; Obi-Wan's burned, and has to let go. *Then* we get Anakin going, "I hate you!"

SG

[VT-16]

might sound like a teenager throwing a tantrum

The difference between this scene and others like this is that HE IS ON FIRE and has just LOST THREE LIMBS! I honestly don´t care what he yells, as long as he´s charbroiled while doing it.

[mverta]

We can't really comment on the harshness of Obi-Wan's walking away without knowing what transpired in the fight, and in the movie for that matter. Anakin's not putting on a show in the duel, he really means to kill Obi-Wan, and apparently hacked up a bunch of Jedi children.

I know if I got in a sword fight with someone who'd already killed everyone I know, I'd stay and watch him burn.

_Mike

[Tellon]

I'm sure a lot of what people are worried about here, can be explained and understood more fully by the circumstances of the scene itself. A lot of time, when information like this is taken out-of-context, it can have a perplexing effect on the audience. When we see the scene played out, with mood, drama, subtext, staging, effects and all the rest of it, it's likely that it will all seem very natural.

I too am hoping for Palpatine's fighter escort to pursue Padme's ship, it would be a very nice TESB mirror, reminiscent of Vader's fighters chasing the Millenium Falcon from Cloud City.

[MasterJed]

Having Obiwan walk away from a sizzling Vaderkin, makes me think that Obiwan has finally come to the conclusion that any small spark of Anakin Skywalker no longer existed in Vaderkin. Although Obiwan could not bring himself to deliver the finishing blow, he figured that Vader was as good as dead anyway. Just guessing here.
I guess him not finishing off the job, and the part Vader plays in the Jedi Purge, is another part of his guilty feeling in the OT. Although, the purges would have taken place with our without Vader.

[Cheesus]

Here's something that's been bugging me...

The only two Sith are Sidious and Vader. On top of that, Vader is on his own. Yoda and Obi-Wan, aside from being the only two Jedi left. They are skilled veterans, and recognized as masters. By all accounts, both very powerful...

So why split up? Both of them should have gone in and taken out Palpatine, and then they go do the same to Vader. Obviously, Obi-Wan has little problem dispatching Vader. Yoda doesn't fare quite as well against Sidious, but it's not like he was just totally overmatched. If Obi-wan and Yoda had worked together, they could have probably done the job.

The situation is very,very different for the Jedi at the end of ROTS. Namely that they can assume they'll be non-negotiable targets if they step foot on any Republic world or come into Imperial presence (presumably Obi-Wan is unrecognizable 20 years later when he comes into contact with the Sandtroopers on Mos Eisley).

Obi-Wan could maybe get by with a shave, haircut, and dye-job disguise, but Yoda?

Finally, they'd have to get close enough to Palpatine to fight him. While not outright impossible, it's would be incredibly difficult. Presumably Palpatine knew they (or Yoda) was coming for him in ROTS and allowed him to make it through his security (I'm talking about more than just the two guards inside his office). Under "normal" circumstances, they'd have to go through a lot to make it through.

And that's just the situation with the assumption that Vader is dead or otherwise incapacitated. Sooner or later they presumably realize Vader is still alive and "active".

And wouldn't Palpatine anticipate the move?

[Fearisthepath]

This scene will be brutal for me to watch.


A) I have always wanted Vader to be the victor.

B) Anakins pontential is now gone.

C) The suit has a different meaning now.


Very powerful stuff.

[ZenDeadly]

I Dont Like the "I Hate You" thing much.. dont ask why, im not sure

I agree. I think (for me) it's because in my head, it's sounding like whiny teenager Anakin. I hope that doesn't happen. I want Vader to be sinister, not sulky. Maybe it'll be delivered in a cool manner... but I'm having a tough time even imagining a way to deliver that line that sounds cool and/or menacing. I'd rather have something like, "You will pay." Even though it's cheesy (and improbable, considering the dude is burning up on a bed of hot lava sand), something like that sounds more "Vader-ish" in my head.

Meh... whatever.

[jmkb44]

I think the point of Anakin saying "I hate you" should be looked at from his characters point of view. Think about it, there are a couple of things at play that would cause Lucas to have the line put in. First, hate is the main emotion that fuels the dark side. Second, it shows that even at the end Anakin err Vader is beyond turning back, and his last words to Obi are not a plea for help but a last release of anger.

It is a the character arc of Vader, setting up his evil persona for the next trilogy. For someone watching the saga as a whole for the first time, by the time ROTJ comes around, it will look like there is no way Luke can survive after his conversation with dad on Endor and he is sent up to see the Emperor. The way alot of shit is made these days, fans seeing it for the first time will think Luke saves the day by killing the Emperor and saving Vader in the process, which is not the case.

Lukes love saves Anakin, Anakins fear of death kills Padme, and Anakins love for his son saves Luke. The character comes full circile.

[Obi]

wow. i kinda like the I hate you line, seems appropriate. maybe obiwan cant save him cuz palps is coming? i dunno. i would have thought anakin was dead too.
"The price is wrong, bitch!"

[korahmatah]

Obi-Wan Kenobi turns, not wanting to go against the Jedi Code and murder, walks away.

The wording of this suggests that actually delivering a death blow is a doable thing, and that Obi-Wan makes a decision not to do it.

It's odd to me as, like others have said, Obi-Wan went there to destroy Vader. In almost any warrior society such as the Jedi, putting a suffering foe out of misery is standard, honorable behavior. Obi-Wan isn't being a good Jedi to begin with, since he's obviously full of all the emotional traits that are 'of the dark side' throughout these scenes. Which is understandable, but makes him a rather hypocritical character.

[ZenDeadly]

I think the point of Anakin saying "I hate you" should be looked at from his characters point of view. Think about it, there are a couple of things at play that would cause Lucas to have the line put in. First, hate is the main emotion that fuels the dark side. Second, it shows that even at the end Anakin err Vader is beyond turning back, and his last words to Obi are not a plea for help but a last release of anger.

Meh... I'm not saying I don't understand why that line is significant or why they put it in. I'm saying I don't know if it can be pulled off in a way that I will find enjoyable and/or believable.

Vader in OT is bad-ass. He's fueled by hate and rage on the inside... he force chokes people, kills his captains and admirals, and kicks major ass left and right.

He doesn't have to say "I hate you Admiral Ozzel".... he is the embodiment of hatred and rage. On the inside.

Like I said, maybe they can pull it off... but in my own head, I'm having a tough time hearing it come out smoothly. Here's to hoping, though.

*crosses fingers*

[Vinceyoung]

The situation is very,very different for the Jedi at the end of ROTS. Namely that they can assume they'll be non-negotiable targets if they step foot on any Republic world or come into Imperial presence (presumably Obi-Wan is unrecognizable 20 years later when he comes into contact with the Sandtroopers on Mos Eisley).

Obi-Wan could maybe get by with a shave, haircut, and dye-job disguise, but Yoda?

Finally, they'd have to get close enough to Palpatine to fight him. While not outright impossible, it's would be incredibly difficult. Presumably Palpatine knew they (or Yoda) was coming for him in ROTS and allowed him to make it through his security (I'm talking about more than just the two guards inside his office). Under "normal" circumstances, they'd have to go through a lot to make it through.

And that's just the situation with the assumption that Vader is dead or otherwise incapacitated. Sooner or later they presumably realize Vader is still alive and "active".

And wouldn't Palpatine anticipate the move?

I'm talking about when Yoda and Obi-Wan are coming to grips with the fact that they've been betrayed by Anakin, and that Palpatine is the biggest asshole in the galaxy. Yoda basically says "I'll go take care of Palpatine, and you go take care of Anakin." Why don't they both just take a cab over to the senate, or wherever Palpatine is, and take him out together, and then head out to Mustafar and deal with Anakin in the same way?

[MasterJed]

I'm talking about when Yoda and Obi-Wan are coming to grips with the fact that they've been betrayed by Anakin, and that Palpatine is the biggest asshole in the galaxy. Yoda basically says "I'll go take care of Palpatine, and you go take care of Anakin." Why don't they both just take a cab over to the senate, or wherever Palpatine is, and take him out together, and then head out to Mustafar and deal with Anakin in the same way?

HMMMMMM. I see what you are saying. It was Yoda and Obiwan's duty as jedi to destroy the Sith. Since Anakin was Obiwans apprentice, Yoda gave Obiwan the responsibilty of stopping Anakin. Yoda took it upon himself as the 'Grand Master jed' to face the powerful Dark Lord, Palpatine. The Sith had to be eliminated as quickly as possible. Yoda proberly figured it was best to 'strike while the fire was hot'. That they had to grab the opputunity to destroy the Sith will the'Empire' was still 'newborn' so to speak.

[Vinceyoung]

They still could have pulled it off where it works out in the same way, but they look like they approached the problem logically and decided not to split up:

They both go to attack the chancellor, and after a big, kick-ass battle, clones show up and turn the tide. Yoda is injured, and Palpatine decideds to get the hell out of dodge. Maybe he is injured too. But instead of going after Palpatine, Obi-wan helps Yoda escape. Then Obi-wan goes after Anakin, and Yoda is too hurt to help.

[ZenDeadly]

As I said before, I understand why the line was written, and it makes sense in that context. I'm just unsure about the execution. Raw, ragged, and screaming is precisely what I'm picturing in my head... and I'm not liking it.

*shrugs*

It's not that big a deal, really... and, of course, I haven't seen it yet, so it might come off looking awesome. Who knows? I just think that a hateful look could/would be just as - if not more - effective than screaming "I hate you."

But we'll see...

[bendu]

i'd go for this approach - screaming 'I hate you' doesn't really go with Vader's lines in ANH.

[Zidious]

I see it as a little bit like Khan in Trek II: "for hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee"

[Akron]

Well, at least it tries to explain and justify Hayden's appareance at the end of RotJ. Anakin is definitely no more after the duel...only his echo, his distant memories remain and come out during the RotJ duel

[Dogg Thang]

You bring up some good points. I personally think that for dramatic sake a bit of license should be given but, possibly as a by-product of the blue/green screen method of film-making, some things are missed from not having the setting there and then for inspiration.

The part that springs to mind is when Anakin and Padme are brought out to the arena in AotC and they are declaring their love for each other. Had that been filmed back in the Ben-Hur days, both actors would have realised there wasn't a chance in hell that they could hear each other unless they shouted. Similarly, if HC had been filming that RotS shot in a similar environment to the Raiders of the Lost Ark fire, perhaps he would have realised exactly what you were saying - those lines could well be out of place in such a fumed and painful environment.

But, y'know, like I said I actually think they should be given some license for the sake of drama. Most of the points being made here are entirely valid and yet could all be rendered void when we hear the delivery.

Dogg.

[Mifune]

If Anakin/Vader yells it with the ferocity of how Luke said "He told me enough. He told me you killed him!" I think it will come of great.

[SoulFly]

I like the message, but I'm not fond of the execution. Also With Anakin referring to Ben as a father figure. It would be nice to see Ben remark on seeing Anakin as a son.

If I was the flannel one and I know I'm not, but if I was.. This is how I would type it out

"You were the chosen one! You were supposed to destroy the Sith, not join them in darkness! I tried to save you... but you would not let me! I had no choice.... You were like a Son to me. I loved you, Why... Why have you done this Anakin???"

Above in the sky, Obi-Wan sees a Theta-Class shuttle entering the atmosphere.

Suddenly, Darth Vader bursts into flame.

"I hate you" screams Vader.

"No! You hate what you've become!"

Obi-Wan Kenobi turns, not wanting to go against the Jedi Code and murder, walks away.

Man I can't believe you all are complaining about this. This excerpt is from the Novel which is BASED on GL's story. Which is based off of the screenplay. I'll bet anything it is different (not completely different but some because it's a movie) A novel is going to be different from teh actual movie. TPM was, AOTC and...EPIII will.

In any case I guess Let teh bitching bef=gin on EPIII as well. I for one will enjoy and won;t even need a psychologist.

[BigWeso]

I think people are reading a little too much into the "I hate you" thing. I agree that I don't want it to come out very whiny, but it's impossible for us to know at this time. I'll trust Lucas for now. Hopefully he won't disappoint. This duel is gonna be sweet.

[Kyeju]

I'm hearing a completely different death from my insiders. I think this may be just a novel thing. I'm still hoping that the novel is giving us some events that play out differently in the final film so there is still some shock and awe even to those who read the novel.