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excellent

Any one able to draw up a picture of how this will look?

I have a clear mental image of what this going to look like now and I like it a lot. Except, perhaps, the Trade Federation-like ships... the Seperatists have been slaughtered for god's sake, where do these ships come from? Still... can't wait to see it in the film.

I knew it'd look just like that!
Well, not the ship details, but the main idea lol. I also pictured Coruscant.
Can't wait to see how the EU will retcon the planet to be Despayr or whatever the Hell it was lol

Another visual clue the Empire was formed from the remains of the Republic and the Separatists. Strange that a guy who connected two asteroid-belts couldn´t connect this? :P

Yeah. Weird, aint it.

Getting back on topic... anyone know if this is just a one-shot thing, featuring the DS I, or will it get it's own close up? Personally I'd like it to get a decent 'showy' shot, perhaps with some proto-TIE fighters orbiting it, ANH-stylie. If it's just seen through the window of the Star Destroyer bridge you won't see as much detail and some people may be confused what they're looking at.

Their problem !

I imagine it will look like a disguarded apple core.
Wasn't there Joe Johnston sketches for ROTJ which had the second Death Star incompleted in the same way? - IE just the poles complete with a narrow core.
I expect those designs have kind of been revisited...

I still think it's a bit weird how it takes them 20-odd years to finish construction on the DS and make it operational, whearas the second DS is 3/4 complete just five years after they blow up the first one.

I wish I knew what kind of Imperial ships are in this scene... Ant hints from the insiders?

Whoa! So this is the SECOND Death Star being constructed and the DS I construction happens simultaneously somewhere else in the Outer Rim! I knew it!

Well, first they made a prototype, then the DS I (all while keeping it secret and hidden from the Senate, which would make the process go slower). Then with the DS II, Palpatine had full control of the Empire and so more resources could be poured into it. Thus making the process go faster.

Hopefully the factbooks will state it is the prototype we see, not the DS I. If not, we can always claim it´s a jump in time, unless the characters state otherwise.

Let's take a practical look at this, though. Lucas is obviously just trying to tie everything in with ANH. So it is fair to assume that this is probably meant to be the DS I, since no mention of any prototype has ever really been made. It's really just a cameo, a throwaway reference that we shouldn't really be reading much into. I reckon that any official fact books or whatever will probably use the same logic as Vosk is using: that they had to test everything because it was all new technology and took a long time to get it working the first time.

For some techs the thought of DS I taking this long to build and the DS II (which is almost 9 times bigger) taking less time (though it was never completed) is ridiculous. Dumb, reactionary thinking, but still...

I´ll go for the protoype-theory when I watch it. And the prototype is an EU-creation, so it´s not unfounded.

That's them - or at least what they look like.

Whats 'Them'?

EDIT: Oh The Core Ships?

Sentry stations, perhaps? For extra protection of the unfinished superstructure.

No, they are actually working on the Death Star. Must be builder ships or something.

I've never really seen the problem.
There is no Senate by the end of ANH.
No procedure.
No one to hide such a project from.

Plus the second Death Star is built under extreme duress.
"I need more men... we shall double our efforts... the Emperor asks the impossible."

And DS 2 was not complete - just fully armed and operational.

I have no problem seeing the first Death Star starting to take shape in ROTS.
The 20 year gap makes sense, there was also an Empire to be built during this time.
Palps couldn't divert all of his energies into such a project at that time...
By ROTJ, he could pretty much do whatever he wanted.

Yes, to Treadwell you listen.

Also,


I don't get what's ridiculous about it. It always takes longer to build the first version of anything. And when is it stated that the DS2 is "9 times bigger?" It's simply stated that it's supposed to be more powerful when it's completed.

? Elaborate on that. 9 times bigger it is not. 120 km compared to 160 kilometers in diameter.

EU isn non-existent for me, so no prototype for me either.

But some argue the EU said this or that.... I don´t know, it never bothered me one way or the other. Any explanation I´ve heard so far seems rational enough.



Measurings from the film and the statement in ITW:OT makes it clear the finished design would have totaled 900 km in diameter, in contrast to 120 km for the DS I. With the increased control of Palpatine the fast construction-time seems more justified. What was built, was built in a hurry to surprise the Rebels.



The '160 km' statement exists only in EU sources, so it has to have some validity for you.

Fair enough, but I always had the impression that the DS II being twice as big came directly from the horses mouth (Lucas) and was therefore included in the SW Databank.

"Measurings from the film"? 900 km? OK, I want a detailed calculation now!

Who cares about how much bigger second one is. All we need to know is it is 'even more powerful than the first dreaded Death Star.' Once you accept the concept that it would be way easier for Palps to get away with building the DS II much quicker and with relative ease compared to the first one, everything just seems to sit nicely as far as all this stuff is concerned.

You´d be amazed at how little he cares about filling in those kinds of detail. The production crew makes general notes to stay consistent, but sometimes these are ignored/overlooked by SW authors. Lucas doesn´t care that much to fix the problem. Until the recent DK book line.

Basically, the official site either makes stuff up on their own or look to old WEG rpg books for stats. And surprise, surprise, who would appear to be an ex-WEG staffer but Pablo Hidalgo? For a guy who cares very little about tech stuff in SW (even ridiculing people who do) he cares alot about his old invented facts.



http://www.theforce.net/swtc/ds/#dimensions


Correct. Just added a bit of extra trivia, that´s all.

That doesn't really make any sense though, because the first Death Star had a trench, not a big reactor shaft like that.

^Agreed.

But still:
As far as those (well-known) nerdy TFN calculations: they are totally dependent on the consistency of the two objects (DS II and Endor) rotating around each other. As we don't know anything about basic materials, consistencies of objects and chemical elements in Star Wars, we can't possibly estimate the necessary centripetal force for the geostationary orbit of the DS II and therefore we can't estimate any radius and size.

The first Death Star was finished by the time of Episode 4. Who's to say it didn't have a trench AND a reactor shaft? We just don't see the shaft all the way through in ANH. We see an exhaust port that leads straight to the reactor, so obviously there is some kind of shaft that goes to the core.

That doesn't really make any sense though, because the DS II hat a trench, too. And how do you know that the DS I didn't have several big shafts that were simply covered by finished surface structure?

http://www.starwars.com/databank/locati ... vie_bg.jpg
http://www.starwars.com/databank/locati ... vie_bg.jpg

Edit: Bandersnatch beat me to it...

I understand that. However, I said that in reference to the fact that we don't see the shafts in ANH, and therefore it makes less sense to show shafts. Additionally, there was the Lando comment, which makes it sound like it was the same type of setup from ROTJ... which it won't be.

But yes, I understand what you're saying.

That's like saying it doesn't make sense to show C-3PO's brain spinning around in TPM because we never see it again.

If we see DS1 being built in Episode 3 along with details of its insides and then we see it complete in Episode 4 (and who knows how long the structure itself was complete by the time we see it) and then get blown up in Episode 4, then see DS2 under constrution in Episode 6 and details of its inner workings, then we can assume that the reactor systems, shafts, trenches and stuff in both DS's were probably similar.




Everything is a set-up for something, it seems...

Yeah obviously the DS I had a main reactor, and it probably looked a lot like the one seen in ROTJ (considering that the Trade Federation control ship's reactor in TPM looks a lot similar to that shape again). Only reason they don't attack it that way in ANH is... well, would you want to try and pilot an X-Wing into that tiny exhaust port and into the middle of the battlestation? That'd be impossible, wouldn't it? Same thing applies for ROTJ, they can't attack it the way they did before, because there's probably no exhaust port even there yet for them to exploit (plus the Empire probably designed new countermeasures to prevent the DS II from that particular type of attck), so they have to fly to the core itself to blow up the main reactor.

On a side note (drifiting slightly off topic here): do we know who originally commisioned the DS? Considering that the plans are in the posession of the seperatists in AOTC, it appears as thought it was a seperatist idea. I know Dooku is the leader of the seperatists and in league with the Sith, but even so, why are they even on Geonosis, unless that's where the plans originate from and they were a Geonosian design. Surely Palps would not want to risk the seperatist leaders finding out about the DS, he would want to keep it secret. Does anyone know anything about this?

TFN host the site, they have nothing to do with the content. Indeed, certain groups on the site have a deep hatred towards Saxton and his work and veheminetly oppose him. Why this is, I do not know. Then again, this is TFN we´re talking about.

Funny enough, after he was chosen by Lucas Licensing to help create the DK movie factbooks, they´ve intensified their anger towards him. If they don´t like the Empire being stronger or more resourceful than they like, that´s their problem.


That is the biggest lump of bullshit I´ve ever seen. You haven´t even looked at the article, have you? There are more ways to find proper scaling, without using the orbit of the moon (vader´s shuttle, the Executor-crash etc.) So don´t give me "We can´t find anything" before you actually know what you´re talking about.


According to EU-sources, it´s a mix of Geonosian superlaser technology and human "expeditionary battle station"-plans.

If you go by only the movie, it´s the Geonosians alone or the Separatists together who made the plans.

I assumed the DS was of Geonosian design, they had been contracted by the separatists to build it at least...

"Poggle ordered his soldiers to retreat and hide, but before he joined them, he turned over plans to the Death Star- a secret project he had been contracted to build by the Separatists which would later become the Galactic Empire's feared superweapon- to Count Dooku and erased all data from his computers."

That's no moon...



No - I agree with you, Lou.

Jejerrod: "The Emperor asks the impossible."

That more than covers it for me.
In ROTJ the Emperor asks for the impossible - AND GETS IT: a functional Death Star, ready in a fraction of the time it took to create the first one...

to whoever said the ds1 didnt have a reactor, it did, it just wasnt accessable by a fighter. the reactor is what the exhaust port lead to.

to whoever said it didnt make sense to have them starting the death star.. why not? its a huge construction project and they have less technology and the empire is just getting started. later on down the line im sure they had a lot more man power and money to make the ds 2.
i have heard about the death star prototype, but i guess thats up to your imagination to believe it or not. its EU and we all know how much GL cares about making that come true in the prequals

Some of this also reminds me of when people say that the computer graphics in ANH should be "corrected" or updated when R2 plugs in and shows the DS plans.

Maybe, just maybe that's what the fucking graphics look like because that's the best technology the Rebels have at that point...

not to mention the death star kicks ass and it will be cool to see it. i also think that the more casual fans, who dont rip apart every little detail, will really like it.

"First rule in government spending: Why build one when you can build two for twice the price?"

- SR Hadden in "Contact"

What´s really stupid is asking people to turn off their brains when watching something outside of a WB cartoon. There has to be certain limitations to doing things, not just recieving a finished DS kit from the ACME Corporation.


We´re not talking about what it could have been or should have been, only rationalizing the different (possibly) conflicting reports when wanting to unify different stories in the SW universe. You´re the one throwing a temper tantrum.


Suspension of Disbelief. Use it, motherfucker. If you can´t, then get the hell out of this conversation if your "sensibilities" are being messed with.

Sounds awesome! I can just see that scene where Vader and Palpatine (and probabl Tarkin) are staring out the window with Vader folding his arms confidently, and then it pans to show what they're looking at through the window: the Death Star.

As for the length of time building the Death Stars in ANH and ROTJ, I had always assumed they were being built simultaneously. I mean the Empire is alot of space to cover, one DS for each Region doesn't sound too out there for the Emperor. That explained it for me.

I'm in the same boat as Lou, I dont need any exposition about why or how the DS is there. All it is to me is a tie-in to the OT. We all know what the thing is capable of & what the Emperor's main purpose of building it is.

I am more concerned with learning the little secrets of the force & such. The small side questions that have been in all of our minds since ANH. Those are the most important items I would like to have explained or shown to us.

Nobody said any thing about DS exposition in the film, the film can stand alone perfectly.

It´s the EU explanation/potential retcon that will bring up a shitstorm among certain people (and will fade in time).

I don't have a problem with DS1 taking 20 years to build either.

If you really need the holes filled in, here are some ideas:

• War takes time to fully wind down and lots of resources are fed into doing that. Just because the droids are stopped doesn't mean the beings on the Separatists forces are finished fighting. Heck, you probably could get another 3 years of the "Clone Wars" as troopers finish mopping up these places.
• They still had to build the Star Destroyers and Super-Star Destroyers we see in the OT. We just see earlier versions of Star Destroyers, right? And to subjugate the populations ASAP, it's probably faster to build ships that can "nuke them from oribit" than a bunch of Death Stars.
• Dismantling and converting parts and programs of the Republic into the Empire probably doesn't happen overnight. Unless Lucas changed something, Palpatine doesn't disband the senate until IV so presumably there's enough squabling that Palpatine allows to occur that diverts resources and funds he could otherwise use for the Death Star program.

So lets say they don't start building DS II until after DSI is destroyed; the Empire would have a lot more resources to feed into making the superlaser fully functional albiet the rest of the station only 75% complete.

How did this Ternian report about what is supposed to be in the movie go to EU?

I mean EU? Isn't that something for another thread or site? I read the books too, but I dont come to MF to wax intellectual about them. I just dont see the need for all of this banter about DS construction & ect. If this degrades down into talk about union wages & benefits for Imperial workers then I'm putting a bullet through my computer.

This is ridiculous to debate. Almost as meaningless as light saber colors and explosions in space.

It's in the movie. Get over it and move along.

Besides, the answer as to why it takes so long to build the first one is obvious. The Empire wasn't firmly entrenched yet, so they had to hire contractors and use union employees on the first one. The second one was built courtesy of NAFTA.

Excuse me, I'm not your average bedwetting TFN adolescent, so try to be respectful my friend.
Why didn't you just counter my centripetal force argument with a repulsor technology argument instead of acting like a keyboard toughguy?

Anyway; I've read those "technical commentaries" several times in the last couple of years and it is a good laugh indeed, especially for an ex-student of physics who knows that physics as well as proper sciences don't mean shit in Star Wars realizing that some nerds take their Star Wars so damn seriously...

Nevertheless, the 900 km diameter number was indeed mentioned only in relation to the "scale" argument, which doesn't hold any water (Vader's shuttle and Executor included), and the CINEFEX report and ITW, which I consider to be EU.
There you have it.

So please play nice and don't get your panties in a bunch over trivial things like these. Star Wars is just a fantasy world and personally I only care for exact sciences in the real world out there.

Basically, we´ve ironed out most of it by now. You can returned to the scheduled fawning over ROTS spoilers.

Nice backpaddling there. Anyway, sorry for my reply being a bit late. I have to live a life from time to time.