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Post Posted: September 26th 2005 4:50 pm
 
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Didn't one of the webdocs say that Neeson never recorded anything? That they tried the scene with someone else feeding the lines and it didn't really work when put into the film.


Post Posted: September 27th 2005 5:47 pm
 

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I'm glad the rebellion scenes aren't in the movie...they detract from the essential part of the story. there are some subtle things that i would have liked to stay in the film, such as seeds of distrust with the anakin/padme/obi-wan dynamic, but overall it isn't needed.

Only scene I want back in the film is the qui-gon scene with Yoda (RICK MCCALLUM IS FULL OF SHIT, IT WAS RECORDED), and the scene with Obi-Wan and Padme before Obi leaves to Utapau. I think it is a heartbreaking scene, and adds a little extra to the Obi/Padme relationship that is needed.


Post Posted: September 27th 2005 5:59 pm
 
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Sure it needed it. It would've been a perfect scene to connect to the OT and explain exactly how Jedi can merge with the Force instead of just dying. Instead, the twenty-second scene where he's mentioned in passing by Yoda plays out like a rushed last-minute addition. The extra scene would have explained the rest of the series and make the ending feel less tacked on in regards to that plot point.

People saying the deleted scenes are disappointing need to look at every Star Wars DVD released. They all miss out on great content that was cut from the film. Nothing really makes this one different.


Post Posted: September 27th 2005 7:17 pm
 

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Zion wrote:
Didn't one of the webdocs say that Neeson never recorded anything? That they tried the scene with someone else feeding the lines and it didn't really work when put into the film.


Well, you know Gabe? He says it WAS recorded. I even heard from someone else that he has actually heard it. I dunno, I think he has more credibility than Rick McCallum..lol


Post Posted: September 27th 2005 7:37 pm
 
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ki adi moonshine wrote:
Well, you know Gabe? He says it WAS recorded. I even heard from someone else that he has actually heard it. I dunno, I think he has more credibility than Rick McCallum..lol


who the hell is Gabe? Gabe at TFN? hahahahaahahahaahahaha


Post Posted: September 27th 2005 7:55 pm
 
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darthpsychotic wrote:
Gabe at TFN? hahahahaahahahaahahaha


Post Posted: September 27th 2005 8:06 pm
 
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I don't mean to pile on Ki-Adi-Morgan here - not at all, just pointing stuff out.

Please read what ArtMaul had to say about Liam Neeson, George Lucas, and Revenge of the Sith. Keep in mind that ArtMaul is someone who supplied a metric fuckton of spoilers to MF.


Post Posted: September 27th 2005 9:09 pm
 

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darthpsychotic wrote:
I don't mean to pile on Ki-Adi-Morgan here - not at all, just pointing stuff out.

Please read what ArtMaul had to say about Liam Neeson, George Lucas, and Revenge of the Sith. Keep in mind that ArtMaul is someone who supplied a metric fuckton of spoilers to MF.


It's cool man. That's some interesting info, and I really wouldn't doubt it at all.


Can't wait to hear about the commentary!

I really hope Lucas talks in all the pivotal moments... now that Ben Burtt is gone, hopefully that happens. It really pissed me off what they did with the ROTJ commentary, where Burtt was talking in the final confrontation with Vader/Luke and then again speaking when Palps is frying Luke... LUCAS NEEDS TO BE TALKING IN THESE PIVOTAL MOMENTS!


Post Posted: September 28th 2005 3:34 am
 

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Qui-Gon's "return" in AOTC is limited to a re-tracked "Anakin!" and a bad voice-over actor screaming "No!". I give credit to anybody who sees the films for the first time and immediately recognizes that as Qui-Gon Jinn back from the dead.


Post Posted: September 28th 2005 6:31 am
 
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This Qui-Gon Jinn shit really amuses me...

No one had a problem with what we saw in the Original Trilogy, Obi disappeared, Yoda disappeared; they both came back as corporeal ghosts and were joined by Anakin Skywalker at the climax of the saga.
People handled that for 15 years or so without having a frigging coronary.
Seems to me no one was complaining back in 1977, 1980 and 1983 when we made those three films one of the most successful and well-loved movie franchises ever.

Now, all of a sudden, it is absolutely essential that we have Qui-Gon Jinn explain all of this mystical shit for us.
Bollocks.
No one would have even given it any thought, it just so happens we were spoiled beforehand and were expecting this scene to be in the movie.
The facts are still clearly stated in the movies:

TPM - Qui-Gon Jinn is a maverick Jedi. He has a different approach to his Jedi peers and speaks of the living Force and the importance of listening to "what your heart tells you". He dies.
AOTC - Yoda is visibly shocked to make contact with a dead Jedi through meditation.
ROTS - Yoda reveals this to Obi-Wan, that QGJ has become one with the Force and has retained his identity. He vows to teach Obi how to commune with his former Master.

That is it.
We were never gonna be told HOW TO BECOME A FORCE GHOST, just like we have never actually been told "how" to generate Sith lightning.
Because *whispers* we don't know "how" to become a ghost, Lucas doesn't know "how".
If we knew how it worked, we would be able to do it ourselves.
All we were ever going to learn is "why" some Jedi disappear and some don't.
And the reason why is because QGJ was special - his approach was unique, his practices were unique - he learnt how to do this, and he came back to show Yoda and Obi how to be "better" Jedi.
It's all in the films, and now we watch ANH and see exactly what it is Obi has learned from QGJ over that 18 year period.


But I digress - the facts are that, for whatever reason, this scene was never realised.
It could never have been a deleted scene - it was never in the cut to be deleted in the first place!
Face the truth - the QGJ scene is history.


Post Posted: September 28th 2005 8:57 am
 
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Treadwell wrote:
No one had a problem with what we saw in the Original Trilogy, Obi disappeared, Yoda disappeared; they both came back as corporeal ghosts and were joined by Anakin Skywalker at the climax of the saga.
People handled that for 15 years or so without having a frigging coronary.
Seems to me no one was complaining back in 1977, 1980 and 1983 when we made those three films one of the most successful and well-loved movie franchises ever.


That's because back when the OT was made, we didn't see assloads of Jedi killed without becoming spirits, you ignorant wretch. People could have just as well assumed that disappearing and becoming a ghost was just what all Jedi did when they died.


Post Posted: September 28th 2005 9:54 am
 
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ETAndElliot4Ever wrote:
That's because back when the OT was made, we didn't see assloads of Jedi killed without becoming spirits, you ignorant wretch.


:lol:

"Charming, to the last..."

ETAndElliot4Ever wrote:
People could have just as well assumed that disappearing and becoming a ghost was just what all Jedi did when they died.


I guess you miss my point - I was responding to anyone who was whining that the saga does not make sense without a couple of lines (which were never recorded - hah) from Qui-Gon Jinn.
The OT stands on it's own merit, always has done.
If you enjoyed it and understood it back in the day, I don't see how that enjoyment can be subtracted by another film made today.


The issue which needed clearing up was created in 1999 with TPM - that some Jedi evidently don't disappear and become corporeal forms.
And that is satisfactorily cleared up - it was something that QGJ [almost] learned to do.
He was the first, and he taught Yoda and Obi the path to immortality too.

This is explained clearly in ROTS, the dialogue in the QGJ scene makes it no more or less palatable.
He learnt it by studying the ancient order of the Whills.
Big deal, that adds nothing.

It's all explained as much as it needed to be, QGJ was dropped from ROTS and that is the end of it.


Post Posted: September 28th 2005 10:07 am
 

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Cutting Qui-Gon's voice-over pretty makes the 'revelation' a pretty huge deus ex machina. It's like Lucas saying, "Oh shit, it doesn't make sense for Jedi to suddenly come back as ghosts, does it?" Yoda literally says the twins have been split up, and then says, "By the way, Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon's back from the dead. Yep. Amazing huh?" It doesn't feel at all natural to the story.

And AICN has apparently ripped off DF's deleted scenes images.


Post Posted: September 28th 2005 10:17 am
 
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The Dark Shape, I agree with you completely. Treadwell, the saga does make sense without the scene, it's just poorly handled in my op.

Regarding the inclusion of Qui-Gon's voice (or, one word ripped from Episode I) in Episode II, I'm glad to see I'm not alone in not even realizing that it was Qui-Gon's spirit at first. I learned only later through the audio commentary and shit. At first I just thought it was there for dramatic purposes (kind of like in ROTS when you hear the Tusken sound after Dooku's death).


Post Posted: September 28th 2005 11:56 am
 
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2Cleva wrote:
DarthFist - If you're open to questions I have a couple - does the commentary explain what the Jedi thought process is when they are talking about their plans for the twins?


Ah, Clev, I didn't think you needed confirmation of that.
Surely there is no doubt in your mind the Jedi want to turn the kids into Vader-killers... is there?

;)


Post Posted: September 28th 2005 12:08 pm
 

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Treadwell wrote:
Ah, Clev, I didn't think you needed confirmation of that. Surely there is no doubt in your mind the Jedi want to turn the kids into Vader-killers... is there?

;)
No doubt at all for me. I plan on using it to blugeon others with the truth.


Post Posted: September 28th 2005 1:13 pm
 

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The Dark Shape wrote:
Cutting Qui-Gon's voice-over pretty makes the 'revelation' a pretty huge deus ex machina. It's like Lucas saying, "Oh shit, it doesn't make sense for Jedi to suddenly come back as ghosts, does it?" Yoda literally says the twins have been split up, and then says, "By the way, Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon's back from the dead. Yep. Amazing huh?" It doesn't feel at all natural to the story.

Exactly. It would have "worked" better for me if instead Yoda said something along the lines of "though meditation, I've discovered a way to become one with the Force. This will become important when we are ready to call upon the twins so I want to to spend time learning this."

Leaving Qui-Gon out of it would have helped loads.


Post Posted: September 28th 2005 2:12 pm
 

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It doesn't feel at all natural to the story.

Since the Force Ghost thing was invented to keep Alec Guinness happy and give him more to do, rather than serve any point in the original story, I really don't give a shit. HAHA to those who do. :cathead:


Post Posted: September 28th 2005 2:49 pm
 
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Cheesus wrote:
Exactly. It would have "worked" better for me if instead Yoda said something along the lines of "though meditation, I've discovered a way to become one with the Force. This will become important when we are ready to call upon the twins so I want to to spend time learning this."

Leaving Qui-Gon out of it would have helped loads.


Well, that wouldn't work for me at all.
I thought the whole point of this, and indeed the point of Qui-Gon Jinn, was to highlight the Jedi's shortcomings in the prequel era.

"Failed, I have."

I thought we were supposed to follow this line through the trilogy:
Qui-Gon Jinn = different approach to the Force compared to his peers -> Yoda is able to contact QGJ after his death through meditation -> Finally we find that QGJ has learned the path to immortality.
Then from there we have a yardstick by which to judge the Jedi, we go back and say "Ah, what QGJ was like in TPM is what the Jedi have got to become like to be better Jedi."

Isn't that the point? Not that Yoda comes up with this idea out of the blue, but that early on we see a living example of the way forward and what Yoda and Obi must become later in the saga.

QGJ's very existence is part of the explanation, so I don't see how Yoda just discovering this out of the blue would be a more fitting way of tying this up.
The explanation is suggested over the course of three films - and it is also played down a tad (we don't actually see or hear QGJ actively connecting with Yoda or Obi, we just know that Yoda was able to connect with QGJ from AOTC through meditation and we know that he will teach Obi how to do so too).
I think it is better that Obi's "Run, Luke, run!" is still the moment where we see this really put into practice for the first time.
Like "Ah, so that is what Yoda was talking about at the end of ROTS..."


Post Posted: September 28th 2005 3:06 pm
 
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I think with most everyone who has seen the OT before the Prequels, pretty much followed through with what Yoda was saying to Obi-Wan at the end of ROTS for his training. I didn't need no long ass explination for the reason why Qui-Gon managed to come back from the nether world of the force and how Yoda was able to talk to Qui-Gon.

Edit: Thanks to DarthFirst for sending the pics do DP. I am very looking forward to getting my copy of Episode III, November 1st.


Post Posted: September 29th 2005 7:26 am
 

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Reading this page is so funny. When you think about it, people here are actually pissed that Lucas did not supply the secret to eternal life.

Put. The. Bong. Down. People. :meatwad:


Post Posted: September 29th 2005 8:37 am
 
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Why, oh why did GL simply not choose to record the scene with someone else's voice, however that voice may have sounded...? It was the return of the Star Wars character Qui-Gon Jinn that I was expecting to see in the film - *not* the return of Isles actor Liam Neeson. I doubt I would even recognize Neeson's voice or look for the name of the "Qui-Gon vocal performer" in the film's credits... and if I accidentally did see it, I would not care one bit if it was listed as "Liam Neeson", "Clint Eastwood", "John Johnson", "Sancho Pansa" or "Sound Editing Unit MCXXXVIII". (*)

What some XYZs seem to fail to understand is that removing this scene and replacing it with a pathetic "guess what just happened off-screen" exposition changed a potentially powerful and memorable part of the film into a laughable sketch. It was akin to, say, watching a version of "Planet of the Apes" in which we see Taylor set down the beach with Nova, and then, instead of cutting to the horse ride and the revelation, we remain where Cornelius and Zaius are, and after a while we see Taylor running back and shouting "Hey, guys, guess what I just saw there? It was the Statue of Liberty, all buried in sand!".



(*) If it was listed as "Ahmed Best", I might be upset, however.


Post Posted: September 29th 2005 9:07 am
 
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AgentPendergast wrote:
Why, oh why did GL simply not choose to record the scene with someone else's voice, however that voice may have sounded...?


I thought they did try an animatic with Frank Oz providing both voices before it was decided the scene would be dropped - not because the voice didn't work, but because the scene in general didn't work and wasn't needed?

Dunno... I suppose that was just what McCallum lead us to believe, so it may not be true :)


Post Posted: September 29th 2005 9:14 am
 
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Yeah according to McCallum, it was ultimately decided that the film worked better without the scene. Whatever.


Post Posted: September 29th 2005 9:24 am
 
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As far as Dick McCallum's credibility is concerned, if I heard "It's day" from him, I would look up to see if the sun is there...


Post Posted: September 29th 2005 9:29 am
 
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Are you suggesting you don't understand why "Boba Fett hates the Skywalkers" after watching ROTS?

:lol:


Post Posted: September 29th 2005 10:50 am
 

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I think this was the scene I was most looking forward to seeing in any Star Wars movie. And I know that I'm not alone there. While some of you argue some interesting points for the "Qui-Gon" scene not being in the movie, it is you who are failing to see the bigger picture. This was not just another scene with some bibble babble going on. This was explaining the greatest mystery of the entire Star Wars Universe. What I always liked about this scene was the fact that it explains not how the Jedi become Spirits, but why the Sith cannot. I think that is more important realizing that Darth Vader has just left the Jedi Order to pursue finding the secret to what he will never find. I hate how Yoda just all of sudden turn to Obi-Wan and says, by the way, Qui-Gon is a spirit now and we've been talking. That was such a cop-out bullshit, poor editing decision. What I don't get is why even bother introducing Qui-Gon back in Episode II if you're not going to bother completing his story in Episode III. This was going to be the scene that gave us that Old Trilogy feeling again. A scene that would've made everyone in theatres get choked up knowing that the end of a saga was near, but damn did Lucas hit homerun with that one. I still like Episode III as it is. I think it has several flaws, the declusion of this scene being the main one, and Lucas getting way too happy with the audio effects of a certain villian's voice. The "Qui-Gon" scene added into this film needs to be there. It makes the story so much better, and would make the ending better too. The way Lucas has chosen to present this film to us now is an insult. Filmmaking is a visual story-telling medium. Don't tell us the information (as Yoda tells Obi-Wan about Qui-Gon), show us the information. The way it is now is sloppy, sloppy filmmaking. And any excuse that they give you otherwise over at the ranch is a bunch of bullshit.


Post Posted: September 29th 2005 10:51 am
 

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Ok, it seems like people have a short memory. I think that the lack of Qui Gon in ROTS is a VERY bad storytelilng decision, and is just bad storytelling all together and I'll tell you why...

1) In AOTC, we hear Qui Gon reaching out to ANAKIN! Anakin may not have been able to hear him because he was so full of rage and was so hurt inside, but he tried to communicate with ANAKIN, NOT YODA. Yoda was only able to tap into the Force and catch a glimpse of it all....so if Yoda learned how to commune with Qui Gon, it was after AOTC.

2) The dialogue actually explains WHY Anakin is able to retain his identity; it was because he became completely selfless and sacrificed himself for love. That is so powerful. And such a startling contrast to ROTS. It brings his story full circle.

3) After hearing Qui Gon in AOTC, you would expect they would at least wrap up the characters arc instead of pulling a 'deus ex machina', because honestly that was what it was and it really is a joke. The character deserves better.

And that's what I have to say about it.


Post Posted: September 29th 2005 12:23 pm
 
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I for one think that the conversation between Obi-wan and Yoda at the end is a total cop-out. Lucas knew we (the fans) all wanted to know the secret. We all wanted to know why only 3 Jedi knew the trick. But instead, we get this stupid explanation. Lucas is a visual person...I'd think he would show this visually with a scene featuring Qui-gon. It's just that Rick was there to wean him of it.


Post Posted: September 29th 2005 1:10 pm
 
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The thing I don't get is, you KNOW the explanation from the dropped QGJ scene, you know about the scene and you know exactly what was said in it.
So why are you bothered?
Do you suddenly forget this explanation when you come to watch the film?
How can it ruin the film for you?
Are you concerned about what these mysterious folk who are "watching episodes 1-6 for the first time" (TM) are going to think when they watch the films? Because personally I couldn't give a flying f**k about them, whoever they are... they certainly don't figure in my personal perception of the film.

(But for what it's worth, Yoda seems to succinctly convey the exact same message that the QGJ gave in his dialogue anyway, so I don't see the difference.)


Post Posted: September 29th 2005 1:36 pm
 

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Well Mr. Treadwell, you have certainly missed the point. We're simply stating that not including this scene, but including the scene from Episode II where we hear Qui-Gon and the scene in Episode III where Yoda tells Obi-Wan about Qui-Gon is poor, sloppy filmmaking. It's in the script. It's probably the biggest scene in the script. You know when Lucas wrote this back in 94 or whatever, that his original treatment probably included this one great scene that sums up the entire Prequel Trilogy: The Sith are seeking immortality, and yet it is something they will never find.


Post Posted: September 29th 2005 2:05 pm
 
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Moiner007 wrote:
Well Mr. Treadwell, you have certainly missed the point.


I'm sorry.

Moiner007 wrote:
We're simply stating that not including this scene, but including the scene from Episode II where we hear Qui-Gon and the scene in Episode III where Yoda tells Obi-Wan about Qui-Gon is poor, sloppy filmmaking.


I don't quite see why, the same plot point is still very evident.
Qui-Gon Jinn shows us in TPM how the Jedi idiom should be approached.
In AOTC, QGJ is revealled to have retained his identity and have become one with the Force. If QGJ is reaching out to Ani in this scene, he evidently fails - the key issue is that Yoda is able to connect with QGJ, and he seems to be meditating, being in tune with the Force, in order to do so.
And finally, in ROTS he vows to teach Obi how to do this too, and that QGJ will teach them the path to immortality.

That's all still there in the films as they stand - I don't see what the QGJ scene adds to any of that.
In the same way that seeing Biggs and Luke at the Tosche Station adds nothing that is not adequately established in Luke's dialogue with his Uncle about leaving Tatooine and joining the academy.

Moiner007 wrote:
It's in the script. It's probably the biggest scene in the script.


Well, I'm sure I'm not the only one who would debate that.
The films are about Anakin's fall and rise; about how humanity are capabale of terrible things; how good men become evil - everything else is just a backdrop to this.
No way is that the biggest scene in the saga - with all due respect, it was dropped from the film before an attempt to realise it in a finished form was even made.
It clearly wasn't that important.

Moiner007 wrote:
You know when Lucas wrote this back in 94 or whatever, that his original treatment probably included this one great scene that sums up the entire Prequel Trilogy: The Sith are seeking immortality, and yet it is something they will never find.


Do you no longer get that imperssion that the Sith are seeking immortality and that this is something, ironically, only the Jedi will achieve through QGJ's example?
I do.


Don't get me wrong, I'd have loved to have seen the QGJ scene realised, it'd have been quite interesting.
But everything that was revealed in that scene is revealed in the Yoda Obi scene.

:)


Post Posted: September 29th 2005 2:28 pm
 
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I'm still lost as to why a lot of people are so obsessed on wanting Qui-Gon in ROTS....we really do not need him in it...


Post Posted: September 29th 2005 4:01 pm
 

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The Sith are seeking immortality, and yet it is something they will never find.

Which is basically implied in Vader's choice at the end of Episode VI anyway, so it's a moot point.

And, yeah, you read the text, so you know the intimate details anyway, start meditating and being compassionate. :mrgreen:

Quote:
Try reading one of many threads, including this one. :whateva:

Try denying that "Force Ghosts" was never part of the original story until Alec Guinness started getting pissed about his character's death. It serves little purpose beyond making Obi-Wan a supernatural cheerleader. :whatevaho:


Post Posted: September 29th 2005 4:01 pm
 
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Raveers wrote:
I'm still lost as to why a lot of people are so obsessed on wanting Qui-Gon in ROTS....we really do not need him in it...


Try reading one of the many threads, including this one. :whateva:

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm gonna go into the Trisha Biggar costume thread and say I'm lost on the whole costume thing.


Post Posted: September 29th 2005 4:57 pm
 
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Does it really matter what started Force spirits in the OT? It still created something that sort of needed to be explained off and which Lucas acknowledged needed to be explained off and said that he would. Sure, he sort of did it. If he wants to keep it mysterious, that's cool and all, but why bother writing a scene where Liam Neeson returns and talks to Yoda and end up replacing an actual presence in the film with a 20 second scene where his name is brought up? All that's done, clearly, is stir up debate. Which would you rather have: Great scene between the spirit of Qui-Gon and Yoda or 20 second scene where Qui-Gon is mentioned. I'll take the spirit scene anyday. But whatever.


Post Posted: September 29th 2005 5:07 pm
 

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Quote:
So, Luke could've found Yoda, who went into hiding and no one knew he still exists, on his own?


Yoda wouldn't have NEEDED to find Yoda if Alec's character hadn't been killed, there would have been no Yoda.


Post Posted: September 29th 2005 5:09 pm
 

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So, Luke could've found Yoda, who went into hiding and no one knew he still exists, on his own?


I said:
Quote:
Try denying that "Force Ghosts" was never part of the original story until Alec Guinness started getting pissed about his character's death.


The Yoda-character was not invented for the first film.


Post Posted: September 29th 2005 5:31 pm
 

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Anyone seen the 3rd season of Clone Wars? Yoda makes a visual connection with QGJ in the first episode. If they do another season perhaps that may explain a bit more about the Jedi spirit thing.


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VT-16 wrote:
Try denying that "Force Ghosts" was never part of the original story until Alec Guinness started getting pissed about his character's death.


Huh? What the fuck? Try proving it. I've never heard that one before.


Post Posted: September 30th 2005 3:35 pm
 
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Hardcore Legend wrote:
I had a hearty chuckle last night listening to Lucas on the commentary of ESB. He said that while the process of becoming one with the Force was a mystery in the OT, the three PT films would expand upon it and show how it works.

Uhuh....maybe in the super secret version you only show to friends. The rest of us got 30 seconds of dialogue in the final 5 minutes of the final PT film.

You call that exposition?


I hate to bang on about this, but IMHO we did.
We get a whole film in which we are acquainted with the character of Qui-Gon Jinn.
It is stressed quite clearly that his approach is different to Jedi joe:
"Master Yoda told me to be mindful of the future" "But not at the expense of the moment."
"Be mindful of the living Force."
Seeing the value in helping out "pathetic life-forms" in spite of more pressing concerns.
Defying the Council.
Yadda yadda yadda - you know the drill.

Then in the next film it is implied that he has managed to retain his identity after death somehow.

Then in ROTS it is confirmed that this is the case, and what is more, he is going to show Yoda and Obi how to be better Jedi.


So if you are still sat around scratching your head - then, again IMHO, you missed the point that the "how" was revealed in TPM, we are supposed to go back and see what made QGJ different.
"How" is everything QGJ did in TPM.
What was revealed in ROTS was that QGJ was the reason Obi and Yoda are able to do what they do in the OT.

Now, the problem I think most of you are having is that we had already worked this out a long time ago, so we presumed there was going to be something more.
There wasn't - that is what Lucas promised to reveal, and he has revealed it.
It didn't match up to expectations, beacause we had already taken it for granted that QGJ was the key.

Nevertheless, a whole film, plus one scene in AOTC, and one scene in ROTS was devoted to "the answer"... not five minutes.


Post Posted: September 30th 2005 3:59 pm
 
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Cut the shit with this whole scene in Attack Of The Cones that supposedly establishes that Qui-Gon is back from the dead. It doesn't. It's one sound clip we've heard since the Episode I trailers during a dramatic moment when Anakin is killing people and Yoda senses "Pain, suffering and death." He never says anything like, "Gee, did I just hear the voice of Qui-Gon's ghost or was that just there for dramatic purposes?" It's like assuming a Tusken Raider is on General Grievous's ship in ROTS when you hear that sound clip.

Agree with how Episode III played out the story arc all you want but please stop giving the fucking AOTC sound bite so much credit.


Post Posted: September 30th 2005 4:24 pm
 
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Hardcore Legend wrote:
What kinda shoots that theory to shit is that Lucas planned a few minutes or atleast dialogue between QGJ and Yoda in ROTS to further expand on this. It's not as if he thought he had done a bang up job and the little interaction between Obi Wan and Yoda was just a bonus for the fans.

He intened more, certainly at the time of the ESB commentary, but was never able to do it.


But that's hardly fair.
He "intended to do more" in every film he has ever made.
In fact, every film-maker since the year dot has had to make cuts.
Contrary to popular belief, films are edited to make them better, not worse.
Lucas also "intended" at some point to have Palpatine tell Anakin he was his father, have Leia as turn out to be some kind of celestial deity and have Han be a green-skinned reptile.
Doesn't mean the saga is ruined because these ideas didn't make the cut.

Personally, A) I understood that the voice in AOTC was QGJ on my first viewing and didn't really need it explaining and B) I don't see what the unrealised Yoda/QGJ scene said that is not established in the Yoda/Obi dialogue anyway.

But I don't really want to seem like I'm arguing just for the sake of it, guys - it's just my take on this dropped scene thing.
It just kinda makes sense to me with or without it.
I guess I've put my POV across - don't really want to make an issue of it.
Apologies if it seems like I was...

:)


Post Posted: September 30th 2005 4:43 pm
 
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Treadwell wrote:
Lucas also "intended" at some point to have Palpatine tell Anakin he was his father, have Leia as turn out to be some kind of celestial deity and have Han be a green-skinned reptile.


Since when did any of those make the final script by Lucas? This scene wasn't just something that Lucas wrote in a first draft and threw out, it stayed with the film for a while. Why is it in the screenplay, novel, graphic novel, etc.? Some obscure rough draft bullshit like green-skinned reptiles is hardly a fair comparison.


Post Posted: October 1st 2005 7:30 pm
 

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Treadwell wrote:
B) I don't see what the unrealised Yoda/QGJ scene said that is not established in the Yoda/Obi dialogue anyway.


Well, for one, it's simply shoddy cinematic storytelling to tell instead of showing. Having Yoda relay Qui-Gon's words to Obi-Wan, instead of having Qui-Gon speak them aloud, is the kind of thing that pulls the audience out of the moment and leaves them/us feeling a bit cheated -- especially if we're aware that what it really comes down to is that arrangements couldn't be made with the actor who plays the character.

McGregor makes a decent attempt at selling this, by doing his best to get us to feel his astonishment rather than our disappointment, but it doesn't hold up in repeat viewings. By this point, even the ivory-tower-dwelling Lucas must be aware that these films are watched and watched and rewatched countless times, so you have to figure that his "this is good enough" mentality resurfaced a bit here.

For another, Qui-Gon tells Yoda that surviving beyond death is something that a Sith will never be able to accomplish. Given that that pisses all over any number of EU stories where it's been established that Sith have done exactly that, I wonder if this isn't a significant part of the reason the lines were dumped.


Post Posted: October 1st 2005 7:49 pm
 
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to sum up what Ayatollah Krispies is saying...

It sucks real balls that the scene was not played out correctly and is a complete and total copout.

A half-assed attempt at an important and pivotal moment.

Lucas obviously phoned this one in.


Post Posted: October 1st 2005 10:25 pm
 

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Actually, in the scripted version, BOTH the Qui-Gon/Yoda and Yoda/Obi-Wan scenes were played out, the Yoda-Obi-Wan scene was not just a replacement.


Post Posted: October 1st 2005 11:50 pm
 

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Which sort of makes it worse, don't you think? To have the latter half being the Obi/Yoda scene, and the the half that truly explains what the fuck is going on. To me, the fact that the Sith cannot cheat death is a pivitol piece of information that is now nowhere in the Star Wars FILMS. Sure they're in the novel and the script, but how many times has Lucas said that his movies are the definitive answers? I've heard him say it before once or twice. So, definitively, in STAR WARS, it is not known that the Sith cannot cheat death. Good one Lucas. You have disapointted me greatly.


Post Posted: October 2nd 2005 2:10 am
 
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The scene was well-written enough to possibly steal the show, had it made it into the film. Anakin had been searching for a way to cheat death and thought he'd found it; But Qui-Gon would let us know it was a futile search. Yoda admitted his failure and went from being the master to the apprentice. Brilliantly realized scene.


Post Posted: October 2nd 2005 1:01 pm
 
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I get the sense that the "by the way" feeling of Yodas delivery on Qui-Gon to Obi-Wan was intentional. Played out as a whole scene between Yoda and Qui-Gon would have disrupted the main plot and focus (Anakins turn to the dark side). The plotline didnt need the heavier emphasis. It would have made the storytelling scale tip the wrong way.

To me, the choice that Lucas made in this instance shows him at his most professional.


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